Klaus Dona
Spiritual Archeologist

Klaus Dona - Spiritual Archeologist
Video interview with Klaus Dona
Vienna, Austria, October 2009

Shot, edited and directed by Kerry Cassidy and Bill Ryan

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klaus dona, bill ryan and kerry cassidy

Start of interview

Kerry Cassidy (KC): Hi, I’m Kerry Cassidy from Project Camelot and we’re here with Bill Ryan and also Klaus… Dona? And Klaus is a maverick archeologist investigating the mysterious past that the powers that be don’t want you to know about, of humanity. And we’re very happy to be here today in Vienna. And Klaus, tell us something about your beginnings and how you got into this amazing field.

Klaus Dona (KD): Several years ago in 1987, I started with my first cultural exhibition from Austria to Japan, and in the last 20 years I did more than 25 cultural exhibitions like about the House of Habsburg, like Rubens and his time, Gustav Klimt and many others, in, mainly in Japan, and on my trips to Japan and back, and in the hotel room sometimes, I was reading many books from very great authors about mysterious objects they found all over the world, and I have to tell you, at the beginning I was the most skeptic man of all. I didn’t believe many of those things by myself. And so one day I thought it might be the best to make an exhibition with many of those artifacts in Vienna, and the scientists, they would have the chance to make a research on them and we could find out if those artifacts are real, old or new-made one.

And so 1997 we started with my friend, Reinhard Habeck. We started researching strange artifacts all over the world and from the beginning we were mainly concentrated only on artifacts which are in museums. So we found on our research in between one and a half years, we found about 350 artifacts, and a museum director friend of mine asked those museums if we could lend (Ed note: borrow) those artifacts for our exhibition 2001 in Vienna. After returning all the letters, the answers we got one artifact accepted, and all the other artifacts could not be lended because of not in a good condition or used by themself or many excuses, so everybody told me it’s better you give up this project because it’s impossible to get these artifacts. And, as I never give up so easy, we started then one and a half years before the planned schedule of the exhibition researching by ourself, we went to South America, to Mexico, to United States. We researched on internet, contacted East Asia and many countries in the world and collectors and museums, other museums, and finally on the day of opening on 21st of June, 2001, we could show in Vienna 470 strange artifacts.

Bill Ryan (BR): That sounds Klaus, that that must have been a really interesting personal journey for you, because, if I understand you right, in the period of about a year and a half, your learning curve about these objects and what they meant must have been almost vertical, as you encountered more and more information and talked to more and more people.

KD: I would say it was hell.

BR: [laughs]

KD: It was really tough.

BR: But it sounds like it’s fascinating. Why was it so hard?

KD: Because first of all, you have to find those artifacts, then you have to talk with the owners, with the museums. You have to build up trustible (Ed note: trust), you have to show that you are really serious, that you are able to do such an exhibition and that’s, thanks of my experience in culture exhibitions, I could prove that I was handling like original paintings of Rubens, millions of dollars worth. So I could prove that I can handle very valuable artifacts and finally we could really get 470. And I did not expect that all those artifacts, we have some scientists helping us, checking if those artifacts are original, and we never found, they never found out that there is some new-made artifact with it. So I changed from skeptic to really big surprised and it was like once you go into this world and you find out that there are so many, so interesting artifacts all over the world, you want to know more and more and more and since those years, I am still researching, I’m still traveling, and the money I earn with my culture exhibitions [chuckle], I spend for the research and for the travel, for the travel expenses and all those things.

KC: Isn’t this because you were an expert on art to begin with, that you had this background, you were able to use the same kind of skills that you developed in investigating art?

KD: Yeah, without my experience, without my experience on exhibition logistic, I would not have been able to do this project, and I do not think that anybody else would have been able to do it.

KC: Because you had gained the respect, isn’t that right?

KD: Not only the respect, you have to have the know-how. What does it mean, an insurance from nail to nail, what does that mean? Against all the risk, making the logistic transportations, the professional packings, the local transportations in Ecuador, in Mexico, in Colombia, from countryside to the capital city to the airport, making the custom clearance and all those things. It’s a lot of work.

KC: But for example, you’ve done huge very respectable art exhibits all over the world...

KD: Yes.

KC: ...in places like Japan and Vienna and...

KD: Korea, yes.

KC: ...Germany and so on. And so you developed a reputation in this area.

KD: Yes.

KC: Also for, you must be a detail person.

KD: You have to be a detail person because if you make just one mistake, it can show up as a very big mistake in this kind of business.

KC: And you’re also speaking more than one language, isn’t that right?

KD: Yes. It helped also a lot especially in South America. My Spanish language knowledge helped me a lot.

KC: Okay. So you speak various languages. So what we want to do now is find out some of the most interesting discoveries that you’ve made so far.

KD: Oh they are a lot, but, and for me, every artifact which is strange is a kind like a puzzle. And the more puzzle pieces you get together, the picture is getting more clear and more clear. And I think it’s more interesting to search artifacts than big buildings, because big buildings, they have already many researchers worked on them, like the pyramids in Egypt or any other big famous old building. I think we should concentrate from now on more into details of artifacts and artifacts can tell you a lot of stories, and many of those stories for me are especially now in our days very, very important because many people are talking about prophecies and also about 2012 and what might happen and what could happen.

For me, the very strange thing is, that most of the unexplainable artifacts are made out of stone. And, as you know, stone is the only material which does not change the surface even after thousand, after hundred thousand and even after million of years. Stone is stone and doesn’t change the surface. If you talk about metal or iron or wood or any other material, after certain time, those artifacts or pieces or culture artifacts will disappear. They will not be found.

That’s why most of the strange artifacts are stone. So, many of the old artifacts also show me that there must have happened several times in past a very big global catastrophe. And if you look at the Bible or any other history or local tribe’s stories, legends, they always talk about the big flood. So if that really happened about 10,000, 12,000 years ago, a very big catastrophe, most of the material would have been disappeared until our days. But stones, they would still be the same.

As you ask me, what are the most interesting artifacts. For me, most interesting artifacts coming from South America and also from Mexico, but there are also many others from Africa, from China, from Russia, from even Japan and many other countries and Australia. In Ecuador, for example, we found a collection in private ownership of more than 300 artifacts, and most of those artifacts are made out of stone and ceramics. They do not fit any existing pre-Colombian culture.

That means the oldest South America pre-Colombian culture is the culture Valdivia. They found ceramic from Valdivia area which is in Ecuador on the coast side, Pacific coast side. They found artifacts up to 6,000 years old. So, as those artifacts do not have to do anything with pre-Colombian culture, there are two possibilities: either they are not coming from this area, that someone brought them from another country to South America, or they are even older than 6,000 years.

And in this collection there was one granite stone, about 350 kilo heavy, and in this stone encarved you can see the world map. You can even find out Italy, Greece, the Mediterranean, you find India. India, on this stone, is bigger than in our days on our world map and after the last tsunami, they found, under the sea level, certain cities in India outside on…sunken cities.

That means, it would show us that this map shows the reality like India was several thousand of years ago, and you have in the area of middle east, like Israel, Syria, you have an inlay of an eye. And from this eye, a natural white crystal line goes over the Atlantic and passes in the Atlantic a big island. So, if you know the story about Atlantis, there are many stories where Atlantis should have been, but one of the places even Edgar Cayce was telling about, was close to United States in the Atlantic. There was a big island, Atlantis. On this world stone map, you have this continent. Then the line goes over Brazil to Ecuador, where today is Guayaquil.

KC: Mm-hm.

KD: The Bay of Guayaquil and continues over the Pacific, back to this eye. But, from the area of the Bay of Guayaquil you have another inlay up to the north, and then a small round inlay. And exactly this is today’s location where this, these artifacts were found. There is, for example, one of the most interesting artifacts is the pyramid with the shining eye, which is very famous in many, many stories in Hollywood movies and so on. It is exactly the same pyramid like on your United States one dollar note, on the back side. It has 13 steps and it has a grey eye. But if you put this pyramid under black light, this eye shines, and for me it looks like the star fog which they found out with, NASA found out, and they called this star fog ‘The Eye of God’. And this eye, under black light, really looks quite similar. So it is a really shining eye but only if you use black light.

So now every scientist would say, several hundred or thousand years ago they did not have ultraviolet or black light. Could be, could not be. There is also the story about the light in Egypt that they used already electrical light. But they found batteries in Baghdad which are older than 3,000 years and they still give electricity. But another explanation I got in South America from some shamans, it could be – very good shaman – is taking some Ayahuasca or some natural drugs that they, this could change the view of eyes and they explained me it could be like if you use LSD. I have no experience. But using LSD also people can see very special light effects with their eye. So there are several explanations.

Other very important pieces from the same place is a stone cup, a big stone cup, and twelve little stone cups. The stone cups, the little stone cups are all a little different size, because they are hand-made. So, but if you fill them completely up with water and you put the twelve small cups into the big cup, the big cup is completely full. And, another very strange thing is, if a stone material, and this is a kind of jade, they call it Jadeite. If this stone has metal part inside, iron particles inside, it must be magnetical from both sides, from outside and inside. But this big cup is only very magnetical inside and nearly nothing outside. And I asked several very good geologists and they said this is not possible. Usually if there is iron material inside the stone, it should be from both sides same magnetical.

So, on the small cups, you have numbers, and they look very, very similar with the numbers of the Mayas, but a little different. For example, if ‘two’ in the Mayan numbers is horizontal, on this small cups the number ‘two’ is the other way around. It looks like, but finally it’s a little bit different. And, on the big cup, you have an inlay of a star constellation, and we found out through astronomers that this exactly star constellation would have happened about 12,000 years ago.

So that means, it could be that those artifacts are 12,000 years. And then, on the other side, on the Pacific side, where there is now Japan and Taiwan, there is from the North until more down than Taiwan is, there is a long continent. And a few years ago, Professor Masaaki Kimura, the undersea geologist in Japan, who researches on the huge monument in Yonaguni, which is a very huge stone monument under the sea level, about 25 meters under the sea level, and he, his researches, he told me and he wrote now a book about it, and he called it ‘The Sunken Continent Mu’.

His researches tells him that from the Northeast Japanese Island which is now belonging to Russia, the Sakhalin islands, until further down than Taiwan, there was once a long continent, and exactly, as his researches shows him, you have the same inlay on this stone artifact from Ecuador. That means, this stone map should be at least older than 10,000 years, but then the next very heavy question is, who was able then, 12,000 years ago, to do so a so-perfect world map that you can even can find out that Italy and Greece and some countries. I mean, it’s very strange.

BR: So the ruins at Yonaguni. They were brought to the attention of English-speaking people by Graham Hancock.

KD: Yes.

BR: Is this someone whose work you follow and are you in touch with him personally?

KD: Graham Hancock visited Professor Kimura and Professor Kimura took him down to Yonaguni to Iseki Island, and he was diving with Graham Hancock. He showed him part of it, because in the meantime, Professor Kimura found out many other things, especially for me, one of the most interesting is a stadium with stairs and with seating rows like an Italian, like a Roman Colliseum, but under the sea level. And Professor Kimura still in our days has problems with some Japanese and international colleagues, because they are saying this big monument under the sea level is natural-made, but I do not think that nature is so great that nature is doing even a stadium like a colliseum.

BR: What’s your opinion of the many highly-intelligent, very well-educated, mainstream archeologists who do not accept this weight of evidence that you and other people have been collecting together. What is the problem there? Why don’t they just take all this information and re-evaluate some of their theories? What’s going on here?

KD: I think their problem is, that they might have problem if they really go further in details with those monuments or those artifacts. I think they are scared, having problems after touching these fields of archeology.

BR: What is there to be scared of?

KD: Oh, there are many examples that scientists who researched very serious on such monuments or on such findings, that they lost their position, that they lost their job, so I think this is the major problem, and another one, I think, is, if one is really researching and finding out unbelievable and should-not-be, results that many, many, many of the other colleagues would immediately attack him openly through television, through newspapers, magazines, etc. I think, I think there are examples like an American lady, Virginia Steen-McIntyre.

BR: I…

KD: You know this story about her?

BR: I know the story, but the viewers probably don’t.

KD: And, and there’s also, there was a young German scientist, a lady. She found out, first of all, she found in textile of Egyptian mummies, coca and tobacco particles.

BR: Mmh. Which come from South America.

KD: Which only, especially, coca in the coca plant, only exists in the Andes.

BR: Yes.

KD: So, when she announced that, they researched her student time. They found out that she was several times smoking marijuana cigarette, and they said that this lady is crazy and so on. Years after, Russian scientists made the research in Egypt and they definitely proved that they found coca and tobacco particles in textiles of mummies, but nobody excused this lady. So, I mean, her future is quite … difficult.

KC: But…

KD: So I cannot, so I can understand serious scientists. I have also the help of many great scientists, but they always ask me, ‘Please do not mention my name,’ because they might get problems.

BR: Actually, it’s a lack of intellectual courage, isn’t it, to some degree, would you…

KD: Yeah. But I understand those people. If I have a family and a good job, why should I risk it to take up such problems?

BR: Yup.

KC: What about, what about Michael Cremo? Isn’t this the forbidden archeology? Is he somebody that you know?

KD: I know him. Michael Cremo, I invited him for the opening of our exhibition 2001 in Vienna. Michael came here, and we did a so-called ‘unsolved mysteries conference,’ and he hold a speech here. But the press did not really report about it. And, I mean, for us a great chance that this man came over and talked about his findings, but for him it was also very interesting, because he could see, personally, some of the artifacts which he was writing in his books in original in our exhibitions. So it was, for both of us, it was a good thing.

KC: Okay. But wouldn’t you say that there’s also some kind of effort on the part of the powers-that-be to keep this information from the public? So it’s more than just individual scientists being afraid for their reputation.

KD: If only one of those very strange artifacts are accepted as original, our history would be a little bit different until we know, until our days. And I think it is different.

KC: Well, haven’t you discovered, though, some things that are actually, I mean, not only the map that, in the stone that you’re talking about, but giants, evidence of giants here on the planet?

KD: [laughs] Yes. You have these stories of giants in any country, in any continent of this world. Even in Africa, the Kalahari people, they have stories about giants. I mean, are those stories all over the world just legends? And I was invited several years ago by Vine Deloria. He, unfortunately, passed away a few years ago. He got contact with me through the exhibition catalogue in Vienna, and he invited me to a meeting in United States with 15 elders of the big tribes. And, at this time, I did not know anything and I have no information about giants or little people, but the strange thing is, that the story, this three-days meeting with the elders were the stories about giants and little people.

They talked about what their legends or what their history, what their ancestors told them and so on about giants and little people. And from that moment on, strange, I got this information, I got another information, and finally, in Ecuador, I got from the family of Father Carlos Vaca, who found 1964 the broken bones of a 7.6 meter giant, human giant, and I was able to take some of the bones with me. And several doctors and specialists were checking those bones, and they were big surprised, and they even made comparisations with original human bones. One part was from the… how you call this?

BR: The ankle?

KD: From the ankle.

BR: Or the heel.

KD: From… the last one.

BR: The… the ankle.

KD: The ankle. One piece was from the ankle, and one piece was the so-called ossis occipitalis [this is the Latin term for occipital bone] which is under the skull which makes the moving of the skull possible. And they checked and made comparisation with the giant bones and with original human bones, and it is completely the same. And, especially the ankle bone, they said this can only be human bone, because no ape, no other animal would have the same bone. So, now we have the information and I know the place where there should be three complete giant skeletons still underground. And, in the very near future, I think I will be able to finance the excavation and that would be the moment when everybody has to believe that giants really lived, but I have other informations, for example, from Bolivia, about 2.6, 2.8 meter giants with long skulls, and I already received some photos which I will give you. The strange thing is, that the skull is like an egg, like a real egg. There is no… no… you cannot see that it is deformed.

KC: Yes.

KD: There is nothing which looks for deformation. And the most strange thing is, that on the top of the skull, we have three bone plates with the center, the so-called fontanella which closes when we get adult. On these top of the skulls, there is no bone plate connection. That means definitely it cannot be a homo sapien sapiens.

KC: So have you had these tested? Lloyd Pye, we talked to him just the other day, and he has a skull from what he calls a ‘star child.’ And I don’t know if you’ve seen the skull.

KD: Yes.

KC: But… he’s trying to raise money to get it tested.

KD: Yes.

KC: And I’m wondering, did you have any of the bones that you’ve discovered tested this special way?

KD: Giant bones from Ecuador. I have a friend who is the only archeological DNA specialist in Austria. And he checked these bones, but he could not find any any DNA and he said, up to 10,000 years there might be a chance to find DNA, but if bones are older than 10,000 years, you can forget, you cannot find any DNA anymore. And the good thing is, in this area where the bones were found, the earth is very hard, and so the water cannot go through the earth in this area. That means that the bones could stay there for, let’s say, even more than 10,000 years. And the strange thing is, where those bones were found, the area is called, in the Ayamara language, ‘the cemetery of the giants.’

BR: Let me first ask you a scientific question. It is not intended to be skeptical, but it is a genuine question which I have, which is now, if we convert this to feet for our American friends watching this video, you’re talking about giants that are 15 to 25 feet tall.

KD: That’s right.

BR: Now, my understanding of such a large human being, is that there would be problems with the skeletal structure, the weight that it would have to have, volume-to-surface ratio. If you think about a large animal like an elephant or a rhinoceros, they move slowly, their legs are very thick. The thing would look differently than a human who is two meters or six feet high. Is there evidence that the, for instance, that the leg bones, the femur, is especially strong, because these things must weigh an enormous amount. Do they actually look like people but scaled up?

KD: That is what I cannot answer as long as we do not really find one complete.

BR: Okay.

KD: But on the other hand, there are two possibilities. Either the gravity of the Earth was different...

KC: Hmm.

BR: Mm-hm. Or they come from a planet where the gravity of the earth was different.

KD: That could be the next possibility. But then there is a third one. Because in writings, in documentations from 1573, Pedro Cieza de León, a very famous Spanish, half Spanish, half Inca historian of the Conquistadores in South America…

BR: Yes.

KD: …there is the writing, his writing which says that the coast of Esmeraldas in Ecuador, we found several skeletons, human skeletons, but they were all five to six times taller than we are…

BR: Hmm.

KD: …and as those skeletons only could be from devil, they destroyed them.

BR: Oh okay.

KC: I don’t understand. They could only be from what, from…

KD: From the devil.

KC: From the devil.

KD: From the devil. They really found skeletons five to six times taller, and around this age, the normal men were about 150 centimeters, so if you multiply five times, and this is what our researchers said on the giant bones and on the human bones, it look exactly like human, but it’s impossible because it is at least five times taller. On the other hand, we also have in our exhibition an axe, a granite axe which is so heavy, that it’s difficult to move it around. And also, this axe, if you compare it with a normal stone axe, it’s again, about five times taller. It’s about 70 centimeters, and you can easily see where the string was over, but for a museum, of course, this is a ceremonial axe.

BR: Yes.

KD: For me, it’s another piece of the puzzle.

KC: Okay. But how could these men have lived a long time? In other words, does it mean that the gravity of the Earth had to be different back then?

KD: I cannot answer.

KC: Okay.

KD: I mean, what we have to do is age dating, how old are the bones, but even there, we have two possibilities. The C14 or the … I don’t know in English now the name… but all of these researches are quite expensive, and I cannot make on the one hand the researches abroad to find those pieces, to make the travels, to collect the pieces for an exhibition, to do the exhibition. On the other hand, each piece, to check through scientists. I mean, this would cost really a lot of money.

KC: Okay. And, I mean, well, I would like to ask you about that. How do you finance what you do, because it’s obviously very expensive to do these explorations.

KD: I am using the money I earn with my real work, I mean, with my culture exhibitions…

KC: Uh-huh.

KD: I use to spend for the other side.

KC: Okay. Well this is very admirable that you do this. You really have to be so passionate in order to pursue this. I mean, you must be just busy all the time.

KD: But isn’t the same time. Is that the same to you?

KC: Yes. Absolutely.

KD: What you are doing?

KC: Yes.

KD: I mean, it’s not easy, what we are doing.

KC: No it isn’t.

BR: What we’re doing is…

KC: …amazing.

BR: What we’re doing is a pretty much a full-time hobby and… you have a part-time hobby. It’s a wonderful hobby to have, and it involves going places that some of the people don’t necessarily want to go. And it’s very interesting to follow that journey. Let me just ask you one or two other questions here, because you made a couple of references to the pieces of the puzzle that you’re putting together. Now, let me summarize what I think you are saying, and then I invite you to comment in-depth. And that is that there is an accumulating amount of evidence from different researchers all over the world, that there was a global civilization that was maybe ten to twelve thousand years ago or maybe much older, that artifacts have been found all over the world that connect South America, Egypt, even Asian countries with the same sorts of things, and that some of the inhabitants of that ancient world seem to have been giants. And I know there’s a Biblical reference to that. There’s this interesting Biblical verse, it says, ‘And there were giants on the earth in those days.’

KD: Yes.

BR: And nobody knows what that means. It’s just a little statement. But, what do you think was happening in this unknown area of pre-history of pre-recorded history which seems to be one which academic archeologists almost all refuse to look at, and there’s this huge sort of treasure trove of information and evidence that says what? what is it, that it is, that all this means?

KD: I have not yet a real answer. I am still researching, but coming back what you said about a global civilization. We found stones with the same unknown writings in Ecuador, in Colombia, in United States, in Australia, in France, in Malta, in Turkmenistan. That means, how could have been that? And, coming back to talking about the Bible, you have in the Bible written until the building of the Tower of Babel, the whole human spoke one language. Now we have stones with the same writing and it is an unknown writing.

There was one person, Professor Kurt Schildmann in Germany who was able to translate this writing and he called this writing ‘pre-Sanskrit,’ and he said that this writing has, is close to the writing of Indus Valley, like Mohenjo Daro. The Indian Valley writing and also it is close to the Easter Island writing. But it’s older than Sanskrit so he named it pre-Sanskrit. And as he passed away, there is a second professor, an Italian professor who is now able also to translate it, and they found in Calabria over 300 artifacts made out of stone and ceramic, and terracotta. And there was one big plate, and he translated this plate and the translation was talking about a small stone circle like Stonehenge but smaller, of course. It was writing about a mastodon and it was writing that in this area also are the graves, underground graves of the sea kings. And a friend of mine, Adriano Forgione

BR: This is his translation. [unclear], right?

KD: That was his translation. Yes. And the area, the translation where can be find this area, and because of this translation, my friend Adriano Forgione found the small stone circle. He found the mastodon statue, and he found with ground-penetrating radar, that there is underground a huge tunnel system.

BR: So it was a correct translation.

KD: So that means you cannot translate something and then you find exactly what the translation says if it is not correct.

BR: How it is some… sorry, continue please.

KD: So this also… and he was also able to translate it because he took over part of the information from Professor Schildmann. So that means that also the translation of Professor Schildmann was correct, but nobody yet accepted it! You cannot translate something and then you find exactly what the translation says if it is not correct. And he was able to translate it because he took over part of the information from Professor Schildmann. So that means that the translation of Professor Schildmann was correct, but nobody yet accepted it. It would be possible with this know-how to translate those information on the stones. It could give us a lot of information of our past.

BR: Now, if there’s evidence there, that Professor Schildmann was on the right track, what else does he say. What else has he got from these translations, that we haven’t been able to check. What else…

KD: He wrote a book by himself. He published only a few hundred pieces. I have one. It’s in German and English translated, and many of the stone translations are talking about big big catastrophe, of flying objects.

KC: What year span is he talking about?

KD: Uh, date? I’m not sure. I have to check it, Kerry. I will check it.

KC: But are you saying before 10,000 years ago?

KD: At least, definitely. Definitely.

KC: Okay. So this discovery, this talk of flying objects, etc. When, I don’t understand, when is Atlantis. When do they figure Atlantis, if Atlantis was indeed a continent. When was the fall of Atlantis?

KD: That’s the next question. Was Atlantic just a continent, or was Atlantic the so-called global civilization? We don’t know yet. Nobody has a real answer yet.

BR: What’s your personal theory, because you must have theories as you go. It’s almost impossible not to come up with ideas, and then, of course, like a good scientist, you test them. But I presume you’re imagining that this global civilization you’re talking about is the same one as described by Plato.

KD: Could be and maybe is so, because I think there is a talking about Mu, the continent Mu in the Pacific, which also Professor Kimura is saying that there existed a long continent and he calls this continent ‘Mu.’ I think that from Pacific region, people moved to through China to India, because Churchwood, who read the book ‘The Lost Continent of Mu’…

BR: James Churchwood.

KD: James Churchwood, yes. He was talking about the Naacal plates he found in a temple in India and the translation was talking about the sinking of the continent Mu. And then he got the information from William Niven, a geologist from the United States making discoveries in Mexico. He found in the valley of Mexico, thousands of artifacts and there were also plates with the same symbols like Churchwood saw in India. That means for me, that maybe part of people from a sinking, for example, sinking continent were moving through China to India and later on to Egypt. And another part came from South America via Africa to the North to Egypt. That could be the explanation why in mummies, in textiles of mummies they could find coca and tobacco. And another view is, that at the Coast of West Africa, they found some sunken cities also. And they found a statue, a half portrait statue in granite mountain with a lady which is not looking, the face is not black-African looking. Either South American or Asian. And this statue, from the head until this area [puts one of his hands on top of his head and his other hand at about belly button level] is about 150 meters in granite. How could they have done such a huge monument in a mountain?

BR: That’s enormous.

KD: This is definitely enormous. And I think that could be one explanation why some mummies are laid in the grave facing the West in Egypt and some of them are facing the East. That could be another explanation that some of those, of this civilization came from East and the other one came from North, ah, from West.

KC: But are you saying, I mean, you say this map…

KD: Yes.

KC: …had both Mu and Atlantis on it.

KD: And a third land also in the Pacific around the area today the Fiji Islands and the Easter Islands is. It is three continents which are not existing or not the same style.

KC: But they were all simultaneously on this map.

KD: They were.

KC: So…

KD: They are on this map.

KC: Okay, but my understanding that Mu preceded Atlantis. Is this perhaps wrong, or this is…

KD: Could be, could be, but…

KC: We don’t know.

KD: …I mean there are so many different stories about it…

KC: Yeah.

KD: …so nobody really knows the right answer yet, and concerning the William Niven plates, friends of mine in Mexico are now researching. Hopefully, we can find some of them, and another friend of mine, a German researcher, found and he could see already the Naacal plates in India which nobody yet could see or make a photo about it. So that means that those plates exist, and I am wondering if this has a connection again to this unknown writing, because on a stone plate which was found in Yonaguni, there are also some symbols, and they are definitely similar with the symbols which Churchwood was showing in his book, ‘The Lost Continent of Mu.’ So, I mean, there is more behind these legends like we really can imagine until our days, I think.

BR: You exactly anticipated my question there without my even asking it. One which I would want to ask, though, is what is your theory about the statues on Easter Island? Who are those guys? Are these the giants?

KD: Could be. I have no idea.

BR: You have no idea.

KD: I have no idea, but Professor Muldashev, a Russian researcher, he was with a scientific delegation in Easter Island, and he said that he could follow underground tunnels which are going down into the sea. I mean, there must be some more under the sea level, but nobody yet could find out what is there.

KC: But these statues on Easter Island do not look human. They look as if, at the very least, they’re wearing a space suit or some kind of armature.

KD: They look strange.

KC: They’re some kind of extrapolation as to what humans… In other words, an artistic interpretation, or they’re simply not human. Isn’t it true that you have found, I don’t know, large footprints and this kind of things?

KD: Very large footprints and also this Professor Muldashev with his archeology skill, geologist. They checked this and they brought even material with them, and they found out that this was not stone. It was cement. That means that a real tall guy, at least five to six meters, was putting his feet into the weak cement, then he made a left step ahead, and for coming back in the former position or going one step out of the cement, you have to put your weight on your ankle, and they made a measurement and everything and they said there is no doubt. This was definitely a human giant stepping inside the cement.

KC: Okay but isn’t...

KD: And it’s not stone, and this is very interesting. So this is very interesting. So that means...

KC: I thought cement was not even created until relatively recently.

KD: Very interesting information that they found in one stone block of the great pyramid in Egypt a human hair, coming out from the stone. So that means, could it be that this is not stone, that this also was cement or is it really stone? I mean, I am not a geologist and I have no chance to check it, but it would be interesting, how comes a human hair into a stone?

BR: two representations of people in relief, one half human, half bird I have a question now, about these two artifacts which you have here. I know that most of them are in secure storage at the moment, so we’re not able to lay it all out on the table. But on your desk right here, you’ve got a couple of objects that I find absolutely fascinating, and would you tell us why you brought these out for us, what they are, what is their significance. What are we looking at here? There are metal plates.

KD: These are two bronze plates. They were in the ownership of Father Crespi, an Italian father living in Ecuador. And he collected many, many pieces and Indians brought him, local people brought him when he helped them. Always some gifts and he said that those plates were brought from the Cueva de los Tayos, the famous underground tunnel system in Ecuador.

BR: Now I have heard of this, but maybe some of our viewers haven’t. What is that? This is something which I’ve heard described as the metal library. Is that right?

KD: Could be that those pieces are from this metal library. They are not, they were not accepted by official... Patrimonio Cultural, that means the... ministry. They did check on all the pieces of Father Carlos Vaca, and as those two pieces have nothing to do with the pre-Colombian culture, they were not accepted as original. The strange thing is, that a few month ago in Bolivia, they found out some translations of writings on stone monuments in Bolivia, and they found out that this writing is connected, or is Sumerian writing. And if we are talking now about Sumerian writing or Phoenician writing found in South America, we have here one plate which usually from our view from the scientific view, has nothing to do with South America.

BR: Could you hold it up for the camera [to see]?

KD: Yes, sure.

BR: So [the viewers can see what we’re looking at.]

KD: Here, half human with bird and wings. Bird head and wings, and here is the tree of life. The same found in Babylonia. This is, hopefully and I think we checked it already. It is an original, but there is one, the same statue, the same form, in the British museum made out of stone, but much taller. And found in Babylonia. So that means...

KC: It doesn’t look like a bird. It looks like a reptilian to me, a reptile.

KD: Yeah, but there’s wings.

KC: It has wings.

KD: Yeah.

KC: So that’s why you call it a bird.

KD: Yeah.

KC: Okay. Before, what we understand, is that there is a version of the reptilian that has wings, but that’s not proven, of course.

KD: But interesting is that, Sumerian writings on very, very old statues in South America. Again, the question is, if those monuments can be proved that they are much older than 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 years, then that means, it could be that the writing came from there to Near East or Middle East.

BR: Now there’s writing on this particular... plate.

KD: Yes. Also, this man, his face is not South America Indian face. And also, the clothes has nothing to do with any known pre-Colombian culture, but there is also a story or legend from Lake Titicaca from Bolivia, that there existed the so-called Kingdom [ unclear] and especially the Brotherhood, the White Brotherhood. So, if you look at this man, it could be that it is from this age, or from this legion, kingdom, however we can call it. It’s a very interesting piece, and the symbols, which are here on the bottom, are never saw on any other artifact.

BR: So that’s not the same as the...

KD: No.

BR: ...global pre-Sanskrit...

KD: This is different. This is different.

BR: That’s...

KC: But what is the age we’re talking about, of this?

KD: Who knows.

KC: Eventually.

KD: Who knows.

KC: Well, I mean, I just...

KD: I think, the only possibility, to check the real original, there is in Germany an institution which could find out where the material which was used for the making came from. That we have to do when we can finance it. But, another thing is, on the back side, it shows – and this is very unusual for anybody – it looks like it was broken, and on the front side you can only see one line where it was broken, but how did they remove the other broken line, and why...

KC: Yes, exactly.

KD: ...did they repair it in this way? I mean, there is not a real explanation for it.

BR: So, what we’re looking at here is the raised line of a weld, just as you would have in a machine shop if you wanted to weld a little piece of your car here in Vienna.

KC: [laughs]

KD: Yeah. [laughs]

KC: But it doesn’t... it’s so well done that it barely shows in the front. That’s also very significant, I would think.

KD: And here... a friend of mine, a very great geologist, checked this. He said it’s a perfect masterwork, first of all, and it was gold-plated in the past.

BR: So it used to be gold-plated, but the gold has been taken off.

KD: Yes.

BR: So that implies, in itself, that it’s very old. This wouldn’t, this isn’t the kind of thing that you don’t listen to.

KC: But, it also doesn’t look scratched, like, how did they remove the gold without scratching it, because it’s still beautiful, really.

KD: Yes.

KC: It has an amazing integrity about, and the art work is just amazing.

BR: And, you’re going to go on an expedition fairly soon, is that right?

KD: Yes, yes.

BR: Is that something you can talk about on-record?

KD: Yes. We have informations that they found skeletons, we have from the Bolivian military, we got some informations, that they found skeletons, I talked before, in the size of 2.6, 2.8 meters...

KC: Oh.

KD: ...with the long skulls, and then we will definitely ask the government if we might be allowed to bring one skeleton to Europe, to Vienna and hopefully we get the cooperation of the University, that we can make all the checkings necessary on it.

BR: That would be quite spectacular to have a skeleton like that. Something which I would like to say, on-record here, I’m sure you know about this, is that, circulating around the internet, there are photographs of apparent archeological excavations of these big skulls, but these are all Photoshop hoaxes, aren’t they?

KD: Most of them. I would say, until now, there is not a real original photograph on the internet. I mean, I found out very quickly, I got this information when I saw the first skeleton, it was written they found it in India. Then later on they found a similar one in China and all this. I knew exactly that this is a fake.

BR: Yes. In fact, they’re not fake. It would be unkind to call them fakes.

KD: Yeah. Professional... computer graphic design work.

BR: Yeah.

KD: Perfect done.

BR: They’re entries in a Photoshop competition...

KD: Yes.

BR: ...is what they were, so no one’s trying to hoax.

KD: Right.

BR: The problem is, they’re so good, that people then think it’s real, and the kids pick them up on YouTube and they go around saying, ‘Look, there’s the Nephilim.’

KD: That’s right.

BR: And actually, this isn’t real evidence.

KD: That’s right.

BR: Many people who’ve been following our own work, would be wanting us to ask you the question about Zecharia Sitchin’s research into Sumerian ancient texts, and his conclusions about the Anunnaki. Do you have any personal view, or have you encountered any evidence from your own work about the Anunnaki, or is this connected with the giants that you’ve been talking about, or do you not feel able to comment on this?

KD: I read the books from Mr. Sitchin. Very interesting stories. I have not yet approval that it really connects to the Anunnaki, but, as I told you before, the finding of the Sumerian writing in Bolivia is talking on to some of the explanations of Mr. Sitchin. And hopefully, with more informations on my next Bolivian trip, maybe I can even find more and more and the next step is, the strange artifacts from Middle or Near East, found in South America in Ecuador. That would be another connection to the history or the story which Zecharia Sitchin is writing or wrote in his books. Could be, but I have no approval.

BR: Do you know Zecharia Sitchin? Have you corresponded with him?

KD: I corresponded with him 2001 because I wondered if he might come to our opening of the exhibition and later on, I tried it several times, but I could not any more. I would appreciate to meet this man once personally and talk with him personally.

BR: I can understand that. Us too, for exactly the same reasons. Now, that also leads onto another question. And here, I invite you to speculate, because as time moves on, can you imagine, maybe a time in five years’ time, ten years’ time, let’s not let 2012 get in the way, when much more is being uncovered, much more is being revealed, many more young alternative archeologists are coming forward and doing good work. What do you think is still there waiting to be discovered? What do you think the picture might look like, that we might find the evidence to assemble?

KD: I think there are still many, many, many things underground. But the strange thing is, since the last few years, more and more artifacts are coming up. That means, the finding of such artifacts are tremendous increasing, and if we talk about the amount concerning Bolivian archeologists, only ten percent of the archeological sites in Bolivia are researched. That means, not only Bolivia, Ecuador, the jungle, Brazil, there are so many places all over the world, Africa, which are not discovered yet archeological-wise. There is too much still underground, and I hope we find point by point, more pieces, more puzzles to finalize a wonderful picture. And that the Earth was completely different than we are talking, or we are knowing, or we get taught by schools and scientists.

KC: What you do, with your investigations, is a lot to do with what you are able to do on a human level. In other words, making friends, influencing people, getting sort of in-roads, finding this one leads to that one, sort of almost a magic that goes on between you and the people you meet. Isn’t that right?

KD: Sometimes it’s very strange even for me, and when I make a joke, I say, ‘Somebody is moving the strings, and I am moving into this and that direction. And there are so many coincidences. Sometimes, things are coming very automatically, but I think it’s always very important to make friendship, all over the world, and another very important point is, to keep promises, and be honest and give informations to people, then people will give informations also to you.

BR: Something that’s impressed me about you, is that you are happy to credit the work of other researchers. You are all working together as a big team here. There’s no one doing this one their own, is there?

KD: No, and that’s what I just said. If I am always willing to give informations to others like, today I give you informations, I mean, I do not want until I write a best-seller book or some people ask me to pay for my speech. No. I think it’s the most important in our days, because 2012 is very soon coming. What will happen, we don’t know. Nobody knows. And I think it’s important to give informations. Then you will receive informations. And just a global network can help the researchers to find out certain answers on certain questions.

BR: I completely understand and agree. This is how we are to operate, as well. But just now, I can’t let you get away with this, because you mentioned the word 2012 for the first time. I didn’t know that this was going to come up. Is there any kind of connection between what we may be about to experience and what the ancient people experienced as is evidenced in the artifacts that you’ve examined?

KD: I got some informations from some shamans, some elders and especially also from David Wood, who is a Mexican man, and I think he is world-wide the best man talking about the Mayan and Aztec calendar. And he can, concerning the Maya-Aztec calendar, he can tell about the future and he gave me some informations.

BR: Can you summarize that?

KD: Ah...

BR: Or would you prefer not to?

KD: If somebody would give this information, I think it should be David Wood himself. And he’s really the expert on Maya and Aztec calendar.

KC: Okay, but you’ve also met some of the elders. In other words, you must have met the Mayan elders and perhaps have you talked to the Hopis at all?

KD: Hopi, not. Other tribe elders and in Mexico, yes. In Peru, yes. In Ecuador, in Colombia.

KC: Well, this is amazing. So have they given you any information?

KD: I got some informations, yes.

KC: Okay. And did they tell you anything about 2012, in their view?

KD: We have two possibilities.

KC: Okay.

KD: A good one, and a bad one.

KC: I see.

KD: And that’s why we still have time, three years to work on, up to this date.

KC: Okay. So they have led you to believe that the future is not fixed.

KD: No. There is always a possibility, a chance.

KC: Okay. And is 2012 perhaps influencing you to do some of the work that you do?

KD: No. I hope I can do it longer than up to 2012.

KC: Okay.

KD: Because it’s very interesting.

KC: Yes. [laughs] No doubt about it. So, tell us a little bit more about the discoveries that you’ve made that are actually, possibly have the potential to change history as we know it.

KD: Change history is quite difficult, I say. Ah yeah, you mean the...

KC: Our view of history.

KD: genetic disk ...the view of history, yes? For example, a very interesting collection also, in Bogota, in Colombia, Professor Gutierrez. He is the most famous industrial designer and architect in Colombia. And he has a collection of very strange artifacts, all found in Colombia. For example, there are small tiles made out of a stone which is called ludite, which is very hard. It’s about nearly the same hardness like granite, but the structure of this stone is like leaves, so that means it breaks very easily, even it’s so hard. And also a small disk, like this size. We call it the ‘genetic disk,’ because on this stone disk you have the egg with spermia inside, and the egg without spermia inside, from human, which looks exactly like a photo made by Swedish photographer, I think 25 years ago. He could make a photo inside a lady with a microscope camera, and this photo looks exactly like one of the encarvings on this genetical disk.

Then you have also shown the spermia, and you have the different fetus of different age, so many things which, I think, somebody a few thousand years ago could not have been able to see those things or to show those things. And especially – and this was the great surprise – we, first of all, in Vienna, we did a material check on these artifacts. It’s definitely ludite. That means, it looks like metal. It looks black like metal. But it is stone and it is this very strange stone called ‘ludite.’ And the most expert in Vienna on precious stone and stonework checked those pieces afterwards, when we got the result that it is definitely stone, ludite.

And he checked those pieces for several hours, and finally, he said, ‘I do not know how they made it. I do not know who made it. And I cannot say when they made it, but what, the only thing what I can say, those artifacts from the same material in our days, we are not able to do.’ So that means, where those artifacts came from, we don’t know. And again, those pieces are not accepted by the Colombian archeologists or scientists.

I am happy about that, because if they would say those archeological originals, I would not have been able to show them in my exhibitions. So, as they are not original, I can show them. But, for me, they are original, and for anybody else, because if you are, if we are not able, to do the same artifacts, even with our high-tech today, who could have made them? They are original. But from which civilization, we don’t know.

KC: Okay. But I don’t understand, when you say, ‘If they were accepted by the Colombian archeologists.’ And...

KD: As original archeological pieces. Then I would not...

KC: Right. Then they wouldn’t let you have...

KD: No, I would not have had the chance to bring them out.

KC: I see. Because why? Because they would keep hold of them? Because of...

KD: No, it’s, they’re very strict with lending archeological artifacts, historical artifacts. They are very, very strict in Colombia.

KC: I see. You couldn’t take them across borders, etc.

KD: I would not have been able to bring them abroad.

KC: Huh. I see. Very interesting. You know a lot about the crystal skulls, as well. I mean, this is the reason we began to speak with you, because...

KD: Yes.

KC: ...you told us some things about actually the Mitchell-Hedges crystal skull...

KD: Mm-hm.

KC: ...that were very controversial and I’d love to hear you talk about a little bit. So, can you talk about why you feel that the Mitchell-Hedges Skull is not actually as old as we thought it was.

KD: In the year 1983 or ’84, Mrs. Mitchell-Hedges came to Vienna with her crystal skull, because she got the information, I think, from Getty’s Museum that the worldwide number one expert on crystal work is in Vienna. And she visited Dr. Distelberger. He’s a friend of mine. She visited him, and he checked this skull for several hours. And he said, he thinks that this skull is made, is from end of nineteenth century, and he thinks that it’s done in Idar-Oberstein in Germany.

He did not say it’s guaranteed, but, as far as I know him for many years, when he says he “thinks it looks like”, and he was laughing when I showed him the report from Hewlett Packard institution, that they checked several crystal skulls and especially the Mitchell-Hedges Skull, because their report was that the amazing and incredible thing what they did in making this crystal skull which is usually impossible is, that they made the skull against the crystal structure, and when he read this, he was loud laughing and he said, ‘This is the most stupid thing I ever heard.’ Because, in his collection, not in his collection, in the historical museum in the, the historical art museum in Vienna, he was in charge for the treasure room, and in this collection, there are vases and forms made in the sixteenth, seventeenth century in Italy. Big, big crystal vases, but made out of real mountain crystal and he said, how they could have done such great works if they would not have worked against the crystal formation. I mean, I appreciate the work, the high tech of Hewlett Packard. I appreciate it. I love the computer technique of Hewlett Packard, the printers...

KC: [laughs]

KD: But I think to check a real old crystal skull is different to check high tech small pieces of whatever, and I do not think that they are really experts on checking if those crystal skulls are original or not.

KC: Okay. This is very interesting. So, if it was created in the nineteenth century...

KD: That’s what he thinks.

KC: I understand. But he also must have come to this conclusion about other skulls as well.

KD: We had seven crystal skulls here, and the most interesting one was a smoke quartz.

KC: Mm-hm.

KD: The so-called ‘ET’ from Joke VanDietan. She told me in advance that this skull concerning her information was found in Guatemala by a farmer working on the field. And he found it underground. And when Dr. Distelberger was checking this crystal very carefully after finishing, he said, ‘As far as I think, that they put the crystal skull into the raw form with a very sharp instrument,’ because he could find with a [loop] (Ed:magnifying glass), he could find some small points always on the skull. Then he said, ‘Then I think they were carving the skull using quartz sand,’ because also with the microscope he could see some scratches, which are telling him, which were telling him that this was done by quartz sand. And then he said, ‘And then I think they used leather for polishing, but in totally, it must have taken a very long time.’ And then he said, ‘Of course, I cannot say how old this crystal skull is, but this crystal skull must have laid long time underground, under the earth, because there is here in this part [pointing to the rear of his jaw line] a kind of corrosion, which needs at least minimum 500 year to get this. So that means, the minimum age of this ET Skull is over 500 years. Could be much older, of course. But it is hand-made and it is older than 500 years, so that means, it is definitely guaranteed that this ET is an old Mayan crystal skull.

KC: Hmm. Fascinating. So the Mitchell-Hedges Skull, when you say, when he said it was nine... the, maybe the nineteenth century...

KD: When he was checking, he said, ‘I could see some wheel forms,’ which means, when he’s talking about ‘wheel,’ he’s talking about an automatical instrument.

KC: I see.

KD: Yeah.

KC: Now is it possible, and I’m just throwing this out, but obviously, we’re talking about giants that walked the Earth. We’re talking about technology that they may have had in Atlantis and Mu. Is it possible that these wheels could have been a long, long time ago wheels?

KD: That also could be, but he’s a real expert and he said the form of work, the style of work...

KC: Mm-hm.

KD: ...shows him more to end of nineteenth century, Idar-Oberstein.

KC: I see. Fascinating.

KD: And this village, even today, has the best precious stoneworkers in the world.

BR: It’s important, I think, just to say, even if that is true, it’s the most wonderful work of art. It’s a spectacular [unclear].

KD: Definitely. That’s what he said. It’s a wonderful done work. A wonderful one.

BR: And it may even have remarkable qualities, because crystals often do, but we’re just talking about the age of this sort of thing.

KD: When it was done and if it is really like, there are so many stories. It came, it was brought by aliens, and it was... so many stories. I mean, where is the guarantee? I would never say something or point out something if I cannot get a guarantee.

BR: I understand.

KD: I could tell you a lot of stories, very interesting stories, but finally, I would not have an approval if this is true or not. So.

BR: I understand. Just as we were saying off-camera, in your work, you have to proceed cautiously and carefully, because not everything is obvious at all in the field which you’re researching, right?

KD: Yes.

KC: But...

KD: I have already enough enemies. I don’t need more. [smiles]

BR: [laughs] That’s hilarious.

KC: But isn’t is also true, that you have to be, you have to have an open mind, constantly, for whatever you’re doing, because you’re never able to really come to any particular conclusions thus far, it sounds like.

KD: That’s what I said. I need much, much more time. Even longer than 2012...

KC: [laughs]

KD: ...to continue this work and maybe one day, we can present a really nice picture, even if it’s not completely yet. But it might show many, many things.

KC: Okay. Now, I would like to know, just on an personal level, how it is that this person such as yourself, who is an expert at art, right, got into this archeology, and yet stayed very er…concentrating in this area to this date. I mean, you’re actually working against all odds. What is it that drives you on?

KD: First of all, as I was skeptical, I changed completely my mind.

KC: Okay.

KD: Of course, I found out many fakes and frauds also. That’s why I always check the pieces personally. I want to see the pieces, not only asking people to lend me for the exhibition. First of all, I want to see them and get my own feeling.

KC: Mm-hm.

KD: And second of all, before the exhibition, I was always telling my friends, ‘Leave me alone with the esoteric persons, because they are all flying in the sky.’ And, through this work, I had so many very strange and sometimes very fantastic experiences, but I even in this field, had to change my mind.

KC: So, in a sense, you’re on a journey of consciousness, not just of material archeology, but you’re actually almost experiencing your own change of consciousness as a result of what you’re coming across...

KD: That’s right.

KC: ...and this is, this is maybe leading you on.

KD: Yes.

KC: Fascinating. Really, really quite interesting.

KD: And through this work, I met so many, so interesting persons, and hopefully, it goes on.

KC: So, you are also on the trail of a mystery, such as we are. And, I think, perhaps, is it the mystery that also drives you, because you want to know more...

KD: That’s right.

KC: ...and find the answers.

KD: That’s right.

KC: Okay. And lastly, I would like to ask you, whether there is a way we can help ask people to contribute to your work.

KD: That would be great. I am happy for any information, where there are some strange artifacts or where they found some pieces which they cannot put them into any civilization or so on. For any information, I would be very happy, because that continues to put the network bigger and bigger.

KC: And do you have any patrons, people who donate to your cause to make it financially possible?

KD: Until now, only one friend who really helps me. But I would need many more.

KC: [laughs] Okay. And lastly, do you think that there are people out there, whether it’s the Illuminati or whatever, ‘cause here we are in Vienna in Austria, certainly, the heartland of the Illuminati, if you will. Do you think there are people out there preventing you or attempting to prevent you from doing your work?

KD: Of that, I’m quite sure.

KC: Have you had any specific incidents?

KD: I had specific incidents concerning financing. I had the offer to finance an exhibition through a foundation, and I started and I did everything and finally, they did never pay, and they left me over with a huge amount open. But, and I think that was really planned to push me out of this work, to show these artifacts, but, I never give up.

KC: Oh. Fabulous.

KD: When I said if somebody declares me war, I have to fight.

KC: [laughs] Okay. So, if you have obstacles in your path, that actually spurs you on.

KD: Yeah.

KC: That’s your kind of personality.

KD: Yes.

KC: Okay. Wonderful. Okay.

KD: I am a peaceful man, but if somebody really hits me...

KC: [laughs]

KD: ...I start fighting, and the more I work now on this field, and the more I will show in the future, hopefully.

KC: Okay. Well, we wish you the very best in your path, and...

KD: Thank you.

KC: ...we’re happy to learn more and to even follow you around the world with cameras, if need be.

KD: Please. [smiles]

KC: [laughs]

KD: You would be surprised, I’m sure.

BR: Okay. Wonderful finish.

End of interview


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Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy