Camelot logo John Lear Tells All:
transcript - Part 2

Home Whats New Interviews & transcripts Round Table In Tribute The Big Picture Shorts
Our Goals High Praise About Us Get Involved Questions Contact


John Lear Tells All
- Part 2
Las Vegas, Nevada, April 2008

(continued from Part 1)
(continued in Part 3 and Part 4)

John Lear: He’s driving home by the time I get to Los Angeles and get my cell phone.
I said: Bob?
He says: Where the hell are you?
And I said: Well, I accidentally got on the wrong airplane. I’m in Los Angeles.
So that was the big laugh for about five years, that John Lear gets on the wrong airplane.

Start of interview

Kerry: [laughing] OK. And with your ideas - and they’re pretty cutting-edge basically - do your friends agree with you?

J: I don’t have any friends. [Kerry laughs, John laughs]

K: Come on, John. I don’t believe you. You’re one of the most charming guys we’ve come across.

J: My good friend Bob Lazar thinks I am nuts. So...

K: Does he really?

J: Yeah. He told us at the birthday party.

K: And he works on UFOs, so ...

J: As a matter of fact, if you’ll reach behind you, I would like to read his birthday present to me. It’s that cup that says “JL.”

K: All right.

J: Just hand it over here. [Kerry laughs] Now, Bob Lazar had this made for me and this is my birthday present. Basically, what it is...

K: [laughs, hands cup to John] What does it say?

J: [reading cup and turning it toward camera] ... is the Periodic Table of Elements. And the Periodic Table of 116 is “JL.” And it says it’s “a human solid.” And the atomic mass is 256.89. And it has all the stuff there [running finger around image on cup]. And then it says:
* Element: John Lear.
* Occurrence: Found primarily in Nevada. [Kerry laughs]
* Physical properties: JL is a rare and unstable element. It is best known for its remarkable ability to resist common sense and facts. [Kerry laughing]
* Applied liberally, JL has been known to improve the quality of lives. It is also known to absorb great quantities of expensive substances. It is one of the most powerful money-reducing agents known to man.
* Prolonged exposure to this element can cause severe physical, mental, and financial damage.” [laughs; Bill and Kerry laughing off camera]

K: That’s great. [laughing] OK. And you told us off camera that Bob Lazar has gone back in, working for the government.

J: Yeah, he works back at Los Alamos National Laboratories.

K: What’s he working on?

J: Have no idea. One of the things he told us is when he went back to work they had a short chat with him [Kerry, Bill laugh]. And before they gave him his clearance they said: Now Bob, you’re not going to cause us any more problems, are you? And he said No.

K: Well, they basically threatened him to get him to come back in. Isn’t that right? I mean, he was having all kinds of problems right before that.

J: I... didn’t hear that part.

K: OK. But he’s been inside for about four years.

J: I think so.

K: OK. And you’re saying that it’s possible he might give interviews.

J: Yeah. Yeah, he did the Travel Channel a couple years ago. And just the other day he did somebody else, you know. But it would be best that you guys not mention my name. [Kerry laughs]. Just call him up out of the blue, you know.

K: OK. But he’s your friend, right?

J: Yeah. Yeah, he’s a good friend. He came to my birthday party and it was really great.

As I’ve told you... I used to have two wicker chairs here. In 1987 I started talking about UFOs. I gave a lecture at the Spring Valley Library. Well, it created such a ruckus here in Las Vegas! People were calling, there were people wanting to interview me. I mean, it just EXPLODED. And, of course, it disrupted my family here because people were calling. Marilee eventually had my phone shut off. She took all my UFO files. [Kerry laughs] I mean, it was bad.

And so, in 1988, a guy called. He said: My name is Gene Huff. I’m a real estate appraiser and I’d like to get some of your tapes and stuff.
I said: Gene, I’m out of it. You know. It’s almost cost me my family. I’m just not doing it.
He says: OK, well, you know, if you ever want to trade some tapes, I’ll trade you a real estate appraisal for it.
And I said: Oh, wait a minute. Because, you know, I needed some money. I said: I’ll tell you what. I’ll get you those tapes and you appraise my house.

So he came over the day after that to do the measurements. Of course, he had no idea it was 7,700 square feet! He’s complained ever since because he had to do such a huge house for just a couple of tapes and some information.

Well, anyway, when he came over he brought this guy named Bob Lazar, and he introduced him to me. Bob was the guy holding the end of the measuring tape.

And he said: Bob used to work at Los Alamos National Laboratories, and he lives in town now and develops photos.
And so I said Great, you know.
So Gene and I were talking about UFOs and Bob was rolling his eyes. He said: You guys are nuts. This could not be true. I worked at Los Alamos. I had a “Q” clearance. If it’d been true, I woulda known about it, I did enough snooping around there.
So he didn’t want to hear about any of this stuff.

So anyway, that was like in June of ’88. So over the next four or five months, Gene and I and Bob exchanged information. And Bob, you know, he... There was three or four things that pushed him over from “This is totally ridiculous,” to “It might be true.” And one of them was, in those days we knew about a secret facility at Los Alamos called YY-II, and my information was that it was where they held aliens there. And then there was something else. But anyway, Bob found out - Yeah, there WAS YY-II. And yeah, it was WAY more classified than he could get in. And there was like three or four things.

And anyway, in November, that was when Bob decided that: Well, you know, I think I’ll see if I can get a job up at Area 51. So he called Dr. Teller, who he knew from Los Alamos. And I think I was there when Bob talked to him.
And Teller said: Do you want to work out here at Lawrence Livermore with me, or there in Nevada?
And Bob said: I want to work at Groom Lake. [smiles broadly]
And so Teller said: Well OK, let me get back with you.

So then, Bob had three interviews down at EG&G, and he would come up here after each interview. And I remember, after his second interview, the first question was: Do you know John Lear? And: What do you think of John Lear?

And Bob said: Yeah, I know ’im. And I think he sticks his nose into places where it doesn’t belong. And Bob told me: What I DIDN’T tell them was I ALSO like to stick my nose into places where it doesn’t belong. [Kerry laughs].
So he got his third interview and he told us, you know, he aced them, because they talked about really technical stuff. And he just laid it out. And he said: I did a good job.

Anyway, the next thing I know it’s December 6th of 1988.
Bob comes, sits down, and he says: I saw a disk today.
And I’m writing out checks there, you know. I’m not paying attention. I said: What?
He says: I saw a disk today.
And I...: A disk? Theirs or ours?
And he said: Theirs.
I said: You went to Groom Lake?
He said: Yeah.
And I said: What are you doing HERE? [Kerry laughs] I said: Obviously they’re going to follow you. Why didn’t you just, you know, work there for a while and then come and tell us what happened?
He says [Kerry laughing]: Because I’ve seen you take so much crap over the past 6 months about this. I’m telling you it’s real. I saw it, I touched it.

You know. And then we spent about two hours talking about stuff. And it was just totally shocking, and...

K: OK. But tell us that story. I mean, we got it on the other tape. But it’s just so much fun, where he sits down and says: John, you’ll never know what it’s like ...

J: That was January. And he’d been up there two or three times, or four or five. I don’t know how many. And I remember it was January, because it was bitter cold and I had a short-sleeved shirt on like this [rubs his bare arm].

And Bob comes in and sits there and, you know, he’s just ON. He’s LIT. And he wants to talk about something. And we already knew we shouldn’t talk in here. So we went out by the pool.

And Marilee’s coming this way and she says: What are you two doing? You know? [laughs]
We’re going out to talk. You know. And she’s suspicious of ANYTHING anyway, and so she doesn’t believe that for a second. But she lets us go.

So we went out in the little back place by the stable. And I’m looking at him, saying: WHAT? What? What?
And he said: John, you will never know what it’s like to see your first alien.
I said [excited]: You SAW one? You saw one?
He said: Yeah.
I said: It couldn’t’ve been a doll? It couldn’t have been...
[He said]: No. It WAS one. [Kerry laughing].

And, you know, these days, you ask him that question, he says: “Well, I don’t know. Coulda been a doll. They were doing all these weird stuff.”

K: Oh, yeah.

J: But THAT night, that’s EXACTLY what he said.

K: OK.

J: And I said: How’d it happen?
He says: Well, I was walking down the corridor. He said: I got a guard on each side. And, he said, I walked by this door and there is like a 12-inch windowpane [gestures to indicate size of window]; it has wires through it. And I looked through it and there’s two guys in lab coats facing me. And an alien standing up talking to them.

Now, did I show you that picture?

K: I don’t think so.

J: ‘Cause he drew it for me.

K: Oh really!

J: Do you want me to get it?

K: Yeah. Absolutely.

J: [indicating papers on desk] These are a lot of stuff I kept from Bob. [shows diagram] For instance, here’s how security clearance works. The lowest clearance you can get is Top Secret. And then above that, there’s 28 levels of Top Secret Crypto. And then above that, there’s 10 levels. Now, these aren’t the real names, except the top one is Majestic.

Now, each one of these are compartmentalized. So that you may have Top Secret Crypto 25, but you don’t get to know ALL that information. All you get to know is what you’re cleared for. In other words, when you get Top Secret Crypto 25, somebody doesn’t come and tell you: This is ALL the stuff that the guys in the Top Secret Crypto 25 get to know. It’s compartmentalized.

So we had this to show that the President of the United States is, like, Top Secret Crypto 17. He doesn’t need to know very much. He’s a figurehead. He’s told what to do.

K: Right.

J: So he doesn’t really need to know all this. To my understanding, the last President that was given any kind of a briefing was President Nixon. Ford knew a little bit. Reagan knew a little bit. Of course, Bush knew something because he was, you know, Director of the CIA. That doesn’t mean they tell the Director of the CIA anything. He’s an appointed office and they HATE appointees, so he knew that for other reasons. But anyway this is how that chart worked.

[Picks up a cassette tape] These are the... When Bob decided NOT to go back to work for the government, we took him into three regressive hypnosis sessions. And they were with Lane Keck. And Lane was supposed to be at my birthday party and I don’t remember why he didn’t come. Or maybe he did come. I think he did come. We’ll see on that DVD.

But he did the regressions for Bob. And what we tried... It was EXTREMELY interesting. The first one we didn’t get, because the tape recorder broke, and Gene Huff has those on notes. But the SECOND one - I have the second one - and that’s where we tried to pull the information out. And I’ll tell you what here. Later, if you want... I have a transcript of the second one, and I’ll let you read it. Because it’s extremely interesting.

K: That would be great.

J: [shows a sketch on paper] This is when Bob was telling me how you went forward and backward in time.

K: OK. I was going to ask you that. So Bob worked on time travel, didn’t he?

J: He didn’t work on it. He was briefed on it. See, when he went up there...

K: If he knew Teller, he must’ve... And he worked at Los Alamos.

J: He only knew Teller because he met him that day in front of Los Alamos when Teller was giving his speech and Bob was on the cover of the Los Alamos Monitor with his jet-car. And he walked up to Dr. Teller and said: I’m the guy you’re reading about. And the doctor said: Oh, really neat. And they had a little chat. But that’s the only place he knew him from. He didn’t work WITH him. But he did work at Los Alamos and he did listen to Teller talk.

K: OK. I see.

J: So Bob, when he went up to S-4, they said: You have to choose what you want to do. You can’t have a little bit of it all. You have to choose. You know, do you want to work on this or that. And Bob wanted to work on reverse engineering the propulsion. That was his job. But he got briefed on all this. And what he’s showing me here [close-up of drawing] is how you go forward in time - which is just exerting a strong gravitational pull. And how you go aft. And he started drawing it like that, and then he put in a scribble. So anyway, these were the...

[Holds up next paper] Bob Lazar 1987. He was drawing me the different shapes of vehicles that were at S-4. And this one [pointing], what he’s doing here is he’s showing me one that had been hit by a projectile.

[going through papers] And when I first started showing Bob the pictures of the Moon, and showing him stuff that was on there [looking through papers]... You know, I would say: Look at this. Look at that, you know, vapor, and this... and that. And he kind of looked at me real skeptical.

I was walking out the door of his home, and he says: You know, John, if any of this stuff is true, I’m going to have to kill myself. [Kerry laughs]
And so I said: You know, why don’t I get that on paper, Bob?
So [close-up of paper] I had him sign this to me. It says: I, Bob Lazar, promise to kill myself is any of John’s Moon stuff is true. Signed Bob Lazar, August 23rd, 1996. [Kerry laughs]

Well, what happened is, when I finally got somebody, you know... when I ordered that photograph from NASA? You know, they sent me the negative. You know? It was a 16 x 20 negative.

K: Right.

J: And it took me, you know, five or six years before the technology got... even to Las Vegas, to make a positive of that size negative. So when I got it, I took it over to Bob’s house and... [camera zooming in on photo] There’s a little one right here. This is the first I got and I took it over to Bob and he scanned it. And those are the scans that went on ATS. And so up here [pointing to photo] – I’ll let you do a close-up later – there’s obviously what looks like a parking garage.

So, Bob looks at it and looks at it and looks at it. And he says: Yeah. He says: I’ve got to admit. That is not natural. That is something.
And so I said: You know, Bob, we’ve been friends for a long time, and I know you are a man of your honor. And you have agreed that if any of my Moon stuff was true, that you would kill yourself. [Kerry laughs].
And he says: Well, is there any way I can get out of it?
And I said: Yeah. Yeah, as a matter of fact, why don’t you just sign this statement here? [Kerry laughs]
And [showing paper] this is August 5th, 1998. This is two years later. It says: I, Bob Lazar, in return for not having to honor my commitment to kill myself if any of John’s Moon stuff was true, do freely admit that the object in the crater Copernicus on the Moon, saved as “apple crate,” is a box, which I don’t know what it’s doing there. Signed, Bob Lazar.
Now that’s the best I could get him to do.

[close-up of Moon photo] But that is the infamous parking garage on ATS that I show everybody. And people say: No, I don’t see a parking garage. But, I’ll show you the enlargements later. But anyway...

These are some more. [close-up of drawing] This is the original drawing he did on how the anti-matter reactor worked. And this is how he showed me the arches were in the...

K: And that was what year?

J: This is all between December of 1988 and March of 1989.

[shows paper] And these are the notes I kept: Meeting with Bob Lazar, November 2nd, 1988, because I typed up this stuff.

K: I see. Now, did he draw an alien for you or not?

J: Yeah.

K: You got it there? Because we’d love to see that. [John looking through papers]

J: I realize that we went to get this. [Pulls paper out of stack] Now, the original is blue and I’m sure it’s here somewhere. But this is the original drawing he made me. [close-up of sketch]: “Drawn by Bob Lazar, January 1988. This scene is at S-4. Position of gray in relation to two scientists in lab coats. Size, orientation and construction of window” through which he saw scientists and a Gray.

So this is... We were sitting... He was scribbling all over. [Rotates paper] This is the test site and where S-4 was. [pointing] This was the length of the hangars, 360 feet and each bay was 40 feet long. [Rotates paper again] This was how the saucer sat in the hangar. And this drawing right here is the two... And this is what Bob drew. [pointing] These are the two lab technicians. And that’s the little alien facing the other way. He drew the door and he drew that wire going through the window. He said he looked through that and saw those guys right there.

K: That’s great. Did he ever have any exposure, like communication with them?

J: Yeah. Three times. At least three times.

K: Really?

J: I’ll just show this [holding another paper] because this is on the back side of the piece of paper. This is Aurora. And this is the airplane we have the cruises at 250,000 feet and goes Mach 12. And that was in 1988. And this is what it looked like when he stepped down from the Boeing 737... When he walked down the ramp this way, that thing was parked towards him, so he was looking up the tail. And he said it was absolutely enormous. He said there was two giant squares where the exhaust was. And he said a man would look like a little doll, you know, standing in those.

K: Wow.

Bill Ryan [off camera]: He’s looking at it from behind?

J: He’s looking at it from behind. Yeah.

K: Yeah.

J: So he doesn’t know exactly. He just assumed that that’s what it looked like in plan view.

So anyway, the three times that he saw the alien was... The first time was when they gave him the pine-smelling fluid. And what they did... It’s really interesting. When Bob came in here the very first day and he said, I saw a disk, I said... And he used to wear a ring. And I forget which finger it was on.
I said: OK, now listen to me, Bob. They’re going to... they’re going to give you some drugs to make you forget what you’re doing. So what I want you to do is, when they take you in to give you the drugs, I want you to take your ring of – subtly - and put it on your other hand. You won’t remember, but when you come up to see me, I’ll see it and you’ll know you’ve already taken the drug.
He said: They already did that today.

K: Oh wow.

J: I said: They did?

And he described this elaborate drug test of, you know, how they took a needle and they put a rectangle on his - scratched a rectangle on his arm - and then made lines like this [gestures criss-crossing lines on his arm] and lines like that. And then they’d take stuff and put into each little square like that.

And then they took him into a room. And he said the room was just like a regular doctor’s office and a couch, and he lay on the couch. And he said there was a screen blocking something, and he said he knew the alien, the Gray, was behind it. And there was a military guy with an M-16 and a doctor and a nurse.

And they had him drink the pine-smelling fluid. And he drank the cup. And immediately he felt, you know, dizzy. And he described exactly what he felt like. He said he felt like he was in a well that was 100 feet deep, that his arms were 100 feet long, and he was just holding on to the sides of the well, just barely with his fingertips. That’s what he felt like.

He said then they started to read the clearance, the briefing of the clearance, which he was being given. So they’d say, you know, they’d read a sentence. And he’d say: And I understand that, you know, I am being briefed. And at the end, the soldier would take the M-16 and poke it into his stomach like that [makes gesture of being hit in stomach]. And he said it REALLY hurt. And at each different phase of the clearance, the soldier would take the M-16 and poke it into his solar plexus.

And so, in the tapes that Lane Keck did, when we were trying to get the information out, you know... They told him a lot of really interesting stuff, and when we would get to, you know, what’s going to happen in the future, you know, he’d say: I’m not supposed to talk about that. And then Lane would try to work around it with some subtlety. And Bob would say: No I can’t. It hurts.

K: Oh my. Wow. Like a programming thing.

J: Right.

K: So, did he ever do the ring? The ring trick?

J: No, because he had already done it. He said they had already drugged him.

K: But he had to keep going to work, so ...

J: See, the reason he quit was because when we got caught... You know, he’d invite us up to see the flying saucer flights. On March 21st, 1989 - and I have that tape right here and I’ll show you; it’s only 9 minutes long - we took that Celestron 8 [points to telescope] and we saw... You know, he told us when it was going to fly. And me and Gene are right there. And I focused in on it and I saw a flying saucer, you know? And it was, you know, tilted about 40 degrees, and it was gold, and it had this stuff radiating off it.

And I said: Quick, Gene, quick! Take a look! And as I stepped back, I hooked my foot around the thing. So, that came up at the birthday party, because everybody at the birthday party was supposed to tell a John Lear story. [Kerry laughs] And that was Bob’s story.

K: OK, well, also the story about getting stopped on the road, and the gun, and the car, and the cop...

J: Right. That was when the County Sheriff stopped us. And that was the third time we got caught.

But the point of that story was that when they took him in the next morning to Indian Springs - which is the center of the all the security - and took him out of the car with a gun in his ear, they said: Now Bob, when we gave you this clearance it meant you were not supposed to tell a-l-l-l your friends about the flying saucers. Now, do you want to work here or not?

And that’s when Bob was non-committal, because the last two flights he had taken up to Groom Lake, he could remember walking up the steps and walking down, but he couldn’t remember anything in between. And he said he didn’t want to work on a program like that.

K: Well, what about the Tall Whites? Because, from what I understand, Charles Hall talks about the Tall Whites being out at Indian Wells, that area? Do you know anything about that?

J: No.

K: Bob ever talk about the Tall Whites?

J: Uh-uh. No. Only the Grays, and he only had the three times. The once was with the pine-smelling fluid. And the once was seeing them in the room. And then once when George Knapp hired Tavernetti to come up and do the lie-detector test.

George rented a room at Caesar’s Palace and Bob and Gene Huff got there early and they knew the room. And so they pull the door open. Gene pulled the door open. Bob looked inside and he turned white and nearly fainted, and he walked over and sat down in a chair. And Gene says: What in the heck is the matter with you? And Bob said: I just had a flash-back. He said: I remember talking with the Gray.

And what had happened is, when they opened the door, the way that Tavernetti had set up... There wasn’t very much light. It was one single table, with a chair on one side and a chair on the other side, and some equipment there. It triggered this reaction of Bob when he was reading the briefings and the Gray was across from him.

And it was such an over-whelming experience of when you first, you know, are in the presence of a Gray, when, you know, you’re used to asking a question [gestures words coming out of mouth], and then having somebody respond. But when you’re talking to an alien, they pick it up from your mind, and they’re answering before you can even get out of your mouth... and it gets confusing. And it was just an almost overwhelming experience. So, that was the other time that Bob had the...

K: Now, do you think he’ll go on camera with this stuff?

J: I doubt it. But, you know, you never know what he’s going to do. Never know what he’s going to do. [Kerry laughs]

[John begins going through papers] So let me look through here. [Holds page up] This is the page where we were trying to think of the guy he worked with – Castroloni [sp?]. But I think we finally determined what the guy’s name was. And George Knapp has it, but I don’t know what...

K: So is George Knapp working for the Agency?

J: No. George Knapp works for Channel 8. Oh, you mean under cover?

K: Yeah.

J: You know, I don’t know. George knows a lot of stuff. And he had me on a couple months ago. And what he was doing was a story on Sandia. Sandia’s the most secret – not the most secret – it’s THE secret base here that replaced Groom Lake Area 51. And it’s out on the Paiute Mesa... and I’ve got a map of it here.

They started building it in 1980 and finished it in 1987, so it’s now 20 years old. About, you know, four or five thousand people work out there. I mean, it’s a HUGE underground base, absolutely enormous. I mean, there’s great big cylinders of offices and stuff that go, you know, a mile deep. And then out on the test site, there’s a couple of runways with all new hangars there and everything. It’s just a MASSIVE operation.

So when George went up there to film it, he couldn’t find it. But anyway I’ll show you... As a matter of fact I have it here on DVD. I’ll show you the exact thing that we did.

I told him that one of the interesting things was... How do we get the people out there? They can’t DRIVE out there because it’s too far, can’t have that many people on Highway 95 because we’ll be exposing that stuff. We can’t put them on 737s because they’re already full now, you know, and we can’t put on more airplanes going out there.

So what they did is, they built a high-speed train that goes from Sandia down to Vegas. And what they did is they put the stops under two of the major hotels. [laughs] So the guys just look like gamblers or, you know, hotel guests walking in there. And they go in there, they open a door, use a card key, and go down, you know, to the thing.

K: Oh... OK [laughs]

J: I mean, it’s great how they do that.

K: Which hotels? Do you know?

J: Yeah, but I’m not going to say.

K: [laughing] OK. That’s great. Have you ever taken the train?

J: [laughing] Nah.

K: You know where it is, you know ...

J: I’ve been meaning to go down there, you know. But I try to stay out of trouble! [picks up magazine] Here’s the Los Alamos Monitor that Dr. Teller was reading when Bob was... [shows photo of Bob with jet-car]

K: OK. Yeah. Great stuff.

J: Yeah, I’ve a friend, Jim Goodall, and he said: I’m coming down there. We’re going to go up to the test site.
And I said: You know, I used to do that stuff, but I’m still alive, so, you know, if it’s all the same to you, I don’t want to do it.

[shows another paper] Here’s three things that I wrote down that were important. I came up with the speed of time. And Bob said... You know, I told him what it was. And he said: That’s correct. But he said: Who cares?

[pointing to list] And what I said was: The speed of time is directly proportional to the amplitude of the gravitational flux. In other words, the speed of time is dependent on gravity.

Then Bob told me: [pointing to items on list]
* It’s theorized that there is one black hole for every galaxy.
* It’s theorized that every black hole has its OWN galaxy.
* HIV - the protein coat is on the virus itself. And
* The recycle time of the gravity amplifier is 10 milliseconds.

Now, the HIV - have we talked about HIV?

K: No, but we can definitely go there.

J: AIDS was invented by a Navy surgeon named R. M. Donner. And when Bob read the briefing up at S-4, one of the things that impressed him is that in the paper... All the briefings he read were, you know, 50 to 100 pages, with a blue cover. And they were scattered on this table. And he could take each one. And what it was, was that as he progressed his clearance, these briefings – [lifts top portion of a stack of papers] - Say this is one briefing. It would be stapled here. And as his clearance progressed, you know, they would unstaple a few more pages.

But anyway, on the briefing of AIDS... and I have it; it’s probably in here, because I wrote a whole thing on what he told us. It was developed, you know, to get rid of a certain segment of... number of humans.

But it was developed by R. M. Donner. And it has the exact cure for AIDS. And it has to do with the cucumber Trichosanthes kirilowii, which is only grown in China. We tried to get it out of China, on three attempts. But - however they know, somebody knows - and each one had been cooked, either by a microwave or something as it passed through customs. So it’s impossible to get it out. But I’ll read you the exact cure and how it works.

K: Well, we have a contact right now who says he worked on that - on engineering the AIDS virus - in Africa.

J: Possible. But it wasn’t in Africa. It was here. It was released in Africa. But it was built up at S-4.

So Bob and I looked for R. M. Donner. We found him. He lived in Santa Fe. He was retired. And we went to see him several times, because Bob then had the contract for the repairing the Alpha probes.

And what we used to do is, we used to DRIVE to Los Alamos from here. It was a 16-hour drive. And Bob had a friend there. And it used to take us like 24 hours to rebuild all these Alpha probes. There was like 300 of them. And we’d clean them all up and then rewire them and then put the aluminum tape on them. And then we’d drive back to Las Vegas.

K: What’s an Alpha probe?

J: They scan for radiation on the people that go in and work at Los Alamos.

K: OK.

J: Bob had the contract. So we did that about every 6 weeks. So what we’d do is, we’d try to... We knew where Donner worked, and we’d go there; we missed him every time. And then we finally got his home address and we went to his home. And we could never catch him home. Now whether he was not answering the door, or whether he was not really there, or whether we didn’t really have an address – I think we did – we never met up with him.

Now, when Bob started to make some money on the photo business and the Alpha probes, we actually went on the airline to go to Albuquerque, and we’d rent a car to go up to Los Alamos. So this one day – and the same things happened on this one day. And I told this in the John Lear stories. I’m going to tell this on myself.

I have trouble recognizing Earth people. For some reason, I just can’t, you know, if I haven’t known them for 25 years – and even if I DO know them for 25 years – it’s hard for me to pick them out of a crowd.

So what we would do is, to go to Albuquerque, Bob would buy a ticket on Southwest and I’d jump-seat with my airline ID. So one morning we get ready to go. We’re leaving at 7 o’clock. And I go to the airport, and I don’t want to get on the airplane unless he’s on it. And I walked up and down all the passengers and looked very carefully. I couldn’t find Bob! So I didn’t want to get on if he wasn’t there. And I couldn’t reach him at home.

So when everybody got on, I asked the flight attendant, I said: Hey, I’m the jump-seat, but I want to be sure a friend of mine... Could you announce, ask Bob Lazar to ring his call button? Well of course what I’d forgotten is, on this particular flight going to Albuquerque, that’s all the Sandia and other guys that go on this flight. So when the flight attendant went: Would Bob Lazar please ring his call button? - of course the whole airplane, everybody starts laughing, ‘cause they think it’s a joke! [laughing]

K: [laughing] That’s great!

J: So anyway, he rang his call button, I realized he was there, so I got on the jump-seat and went to Albuquerque. We rented a car, drove up to Los Alamos. And for some reason, this day, everything went perfect. I mean we just slid through that thing in about 8 hours. And so we realized that we could drive back, get on the airplane, and have dinner at our favorite Italian restaurant called Parma’s. So we pack all this stuff up and write the P.O. and we go tearing down the mountain from Los Alamos to Albuquerque and down the freeway.

We screech into the rent-a-car place, jump right on the van that’s just pulling out, get to the airport. Bob runs up, you know, and gives his ticket. I run up, and sign my, you know, my jump-seat. Run in. They close the door. I sit down. And I heard the captain say: Welcome to Southwest Airlines 304 on our flight today to Los Angeles. And I realized that I had run down the wrong gangway and got on the wrong airplane. [Kerry laughing]

So meanwhile, Bob is on the airplane waiting for me and he sees them shut the door. And he can’t figure out where I went. So all the way to Las Vegas, you know, he says: Well maybe he got into the cockpit and I didn’t see ‘im. So they get to Las Vegas. (And, you know, it takes much longer to get to Los Angeles, so I couldn’t call him.) And he gets to Las Vegas and he goes up into the cockpit and I’m not there. And he cannot understand how we could have been so close and I didn’t get on the airplane.

So he’s driving home about the time I get to Los Angeles and get my cell phone.
I said: Bob?
He says: Where in the hell are you?
And I said: Well, I accidentally got on the wrong airplane. I’m in Los Angeles.
So, that was the big laugh for about five years, that John Lear gets on the wrong airplane. [Kerry and John laughing]

The information that Bob got up at S-4 was [reading from a paper]:
AIDS was a virus that is protected by the protein coat on the RNA preventing the antibodies, the T-4 cells, of the immune system from detecting and eliminating it. The alleged cure for AIDS lies in the excrement of the white fungus that’s grown from the Chinese cucumber Trichosanthes kirilowii.

This excrement, which develops after about two or three weeks, is separated with hydrazine sulphate in an acidification process which dissolves the protein coat on the RNA and exposes the nucleus of the virus that’s detected by the antibodies in the immune system.

Regardless of how weak the immune system is, the virus will be destroyed. No more than 20cc dose per 36-hour period should be administered. No antibiotics should be used during this period. The 20ccs are metabolized in 36 hours, having dissolved the protein coat on the virus.

And I mention here that over the last 20 years I have been party to several attempts to get samples of the Trichosanthes kirilowii out of China, but all have met with failure, the last samples having been cooked during departure procedures.

Now, the “October Surprise.” In 1980, when Reagan and Bush were running against Carter and Mondale, as you know, the hostages were still in Iran, in Teheran. And then Bush took an airplane to Paris to meet – not with Khomeini, but with a representative of Khomeini. And the deal was, if the Khomeini would delay the release of the hostages until Reagan’s inauguration, that the Reagan-Bush administration would supply him - the Iranian regime - unlimited guns and ammunition throughout their administration, which would go from 1980 to 1988.

My part in that was to deliver those guns and ammunition from Tel Aviv to Teheran. The reason I brought this up is that big sheaf of papers over there is the details of who was flying and how they pulled the whole thing off.

The way they pulled if off is, Bush left Saturday night on a BAC 111 jet which only takes about 6 or 7 hours to get there. He only spent about 4 or 5 hours in the meeting. And then he was flown back in an SR71 from a base in France to McGuire Air Force Base. And it only took an hour and 14 minutes. That way, he was able to show up for a tennis appointment that he had on Sunday, and that the press would have not known of the lapse in time or the trip.

And as it turned out, they were elected and they supplied these guns and ammunition. And that was, you know, part of the “Iran Contra,” but Congress never went back farther than 1985 to find out when it originally started.

And when I moved to Egypt in 1981, that was going to be my job, was to take those arms and ammunition from Tel Aviv to Teheran. They were coming into Tel Aviv from Zaragosa, our Air Force base in Spain. And Mossad was handling the whole thing.

I never did fly a flight. And the reason was, the first airplane in was an Argentinean CL44. And what they wanted to do was use an old turboprop airplane to be sure everything went fine and there were going to be no problems.

And for some reason it got shot down on its way out. And it got shot down over Russia, about 40 miles south of Yerevan, which was well inside Russia. And the Mossad couldn’t figure out how the pilots got off course. They were on their way out. They had dropped the load, you know, already dumped the arms and ammunition off.

And they finally figured out that what must have happened is the pilots were intercepted by the Russian MIGs who knew what was going on and didn’t like it. And the pilots thought: Well, you know, might as well follow them because we’ve got nothing on board, they can’t prove anything. And then as soon as they got them over Russia, just shot their ass down, which was a message to Mossad: Hey, we don’t want this to go on.

So that big sheaf of papers was the history behind the “October Surprise.” There were two books. Gary Sick and Barbara Honegger each wrote books about it. Congress went as far as to actually launch an official investigation in 1990, but it was all covered up because, you know, nobody wanted to go back that far or hear any more stories about that thing. But the hostages did spend - let’s see - October, November, December - an extra four months there.

K: So Reagan could be elected.

J: Right.

K: Incredible stuff.

J: A lot of people know this story. Well, it’s been, what? 30 years? And pretty much everybody has forgotten it. The only reason I brought it up is because I’m putting that history there, who the pilots were ...

K: Do you know anything about the Minot... the recent incident with the Air Force Base and the weapons that were... the nuclear warheads that were...

J: That smells to high heaven. I found that on ATS. It was very, very thorough. It was one of my favorite threads. It went on forever. And we had some guys at ATS that really knew what they were talking about. And that was EXTREMELY interesting. It had to be Cheney. It couldn’t have been anybody else that authorized it. And it was one of the most double-dealing instances I’ve ever seen.

K: What would you say it was a set-up for, though? Why’d they do it?

J: You know, that’s the question. Why did they? They have nuclear weapons already in Europe. Why’d they need to steal them, you know?

K: Right. And why’d they need to fly them from North Dakota or wherever it was, South Dakota, across the United States? I mean, what was the point?

J: It’s crazy. There IS no point. Well, there is a point, but I don’t know what it is. But that episode is extremely interesting. I’d sure... You know, one day we’ll find out and, you know, we’ll say: Ohhh, that’s what it was all about. I don’t know, but that was really... It’s My’-not.

K: Yeah. Meh-no’, North Dakota.

J: That’s the French pronunciation. We Americans call it My’-not. [laughing] I’m kidding you.

K: I see. OK. So where are going next, John? What do you have?

J: I don’t know. While we’re thinking about where we’re going next [picks up a book] I just ordered this book. Somebody, it just accidentally came up there. It’s called The Gravitational Force of the Sun by Pari Spolter. It was written in 1993. And basically what it says here... [reading]: This book is a serious challenge to Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation as presently formulated.

And I’m just, you know, this far [shows small number of pages] in it. And basically why that interests me is because Newton DID have some ideas about the Moon, along with, you know, throughout history, about 36 other people who thought there was gravity on the Moon, there was atmosphere, and there was people up there. But each one, you know... The information got gently suppressed.

K: Well, we have bases up there. That’s really what ...

J: NO question about that. We have bases on Mars. You know, the Secret Astronaut Corps has visited every planet, or most of the planets.

K: Every planet?

J: And much farther than that. We’ve been to other solar systems. People, when we talk about other planets, say: Well, it’s too hot on Venus. No. That’s bullshit.

The sun is an electromagnetic sphere. It’s not a nuclear reactor. And it doesn’t radiate heat as such. It radiates electromagnetism and each planet has its own filtering system. And so the filtering system around each planet determines what the temperature is. So temperature on Venus is much like Earth. So it is on Mars. So it is on Pluto. The same on Mercury. There are people just like us on every single one of the planets.

The planets that you hear about as being gas giants, like Saturn and Neptune... There’s only ONE gas giant in our solar system, and that’s NASA. [Kerry laughs] That’s the only gas giant we have. All the rest of the planets, people live on and ...

K: So what do you think? They’re being shrouded? You think there’s...

J: We’re being suppressed. The information is being suppressed. We’re not allowed to know about any of that. The people that Hoagland talks about have taken over. And they consider space personally theirs. And they don’t want to share it with any of us. They have technology that we wouldn’t have to pay for gas or electricity right this single minute.

K: Right.

J: But they don’t want to share it with us. It’s only for the elite, and we’re not included there. We can go to war, you know, and be subjects for weapons and tests and stuff like that, but we are not going to share in that technology. But out there there’s a fantastic universe, fantastic set of planets. It’s really interesting out there.

B [off camera]: John, I would like to ask you a few questions, basically on behalf of the people who are watching this video. We’re asking these questions on their behalf. First of all, I want to say that our source, Henry Deacon, told me personally - I don’t think this is on our site, because for me it felt outlandish - He said that there’s life on every planet in the solar system. He looked me in the eye and he said: You may well not believe this, but I promise you it’s true. [John laughs]

He said that Venus is not as hot as they want you to believe. He said the sun doesn’t work the way that they teach you in school. He said a whole bunch of stuff that corroborates what you’re saying.

Now, he was on the inside. He’s worked in deep black projects all over the place in a number of establishments. And so his source comes from briefing documents, conversations with other physicists, and so forth and so on.

Where do you get your information from here? Because this is so extraordinary and way off the end of the spectrum, that people need to know how you figured this out, or who has told you this, or what your sources are.

J: Specifically the sun, that came from a document in the Branton Files.

K: OK. So have you ever met Branton?

J: No, but we used to talk a lot. I’m not sure I ever met him face to face. But his name was... what? His real name?

K: I forget his real name.

J: I think it’s Dave something. But anyway, we used to be real close and then he got sick for a while and I don’t know what he does. But his information is SO interesting. And I have no reason to believe that most of it’s not true. Have you read the Branton Files?

K: Oh yeah. Absolutely.

J: They’re lengthy. I have a three-inch binder, that I had them printed out.

K: I mean, he’s the one who really publicized the Dulce Base information big time in those files. And you’re familiar with all of that, right?

J: The whole Dulce story started in 1987 when me, Linda Howe, Tom Adams, and several others met in Crestone, Colorado, to discuss the state of UFOs. And during that meeting - it was about 3 or 4 days - Tom Adams walked over to me and handed me a note. - [Gestures at piles of papers on desk] It’ll turn up eventually, but I don’t have it right now – And the note was from him, who I call “Mr. X,” in Henderson, Nevada, and told him about that he had a friend that worked at an underground base in New Mexico... that the walls, the halls, went on forever, tiled walls, and a little bit of this stuff. And Tom handed it to me. He says: John, I don’t have time to go out there, research this. Would you look into it? And I said: Sure.

So when I got back... And before I got back, me and Linda Howe went in my truck all throughout New Mexico. We stopped and talked to Ernie Edwards who was the, you know, the key figure in the Bennewitz deal.

And then, she and I drove down through Corona to see Clifford Stone. And she and I took that road that goes from Corona over to the main highway down to Roswell. And we’re going to find the Roswell ranch. And we get to the turnoff and there’s 30 dead cows there. [Kerry laughs] It was CRAZY. And so... They didn’t have the classic mutilations, but they were dead. And we talked to the farmer there and he said: Oh yeah, there’s some kind of a virus going around. And I forget what the whole story was, but none of it made any sense. And we went down and interviewed Clifford Stone.

Then I eventually drove back to Las Vegas, and met with Mr. X. And Mr. X started telling me about Dulce, about the guard that had witnessed the atrocities that were going on there, and didn’t agree with them, and he decided to escape. And he escaped with – allegedly - 7 minutes of video tape that showed the hallway, 25 black and white photos, and a hundred pages of information.

K: Now, we’re told this is buried on top of a mountain and is inaccessible.

J: I’ll get to that. So...

B: And that guy was Thomas Castello. Is that correct?

J: Thomas Castello. So Mr. X had met Thomas Castello and was very good friends with him. And when he escaped, he made six of these boxes. And what he did is, he gave a box to each one of his friends. And Mr. X was one of them. And Mr. X took me down to Dolan Springs where he hid his box on the top of a mountain. Now, I didn’t go to the top of the mountain or see exactly where it was. But he showed me, you know, where it was generally.

So we get back and I talk to Mr. X over a period of three or four months. And eventually he shows me some pencil drawings that he drew from the original photographs. Those became the infamous “Dulce Papers.” And I have the originals right here that I drew from those pencil drawings. And so I drew them.

K: And what are they drawings of?

J: Of the interior of Dulce

K: I see. Well, I don’t know if we’ve seen them or not. But can we get those on camera?

J: Yeah.

K: OK. Do they contain any pictures of aliens?

J: No. They just show the lab, with all the hookups of the bags and everything.

B: Are these the drawings that were published in Matrix Two? Matrix One?

J: Right. Matrix One. And the way that Matrix happened is, when I kept getting into all this, a guy kept knocking on the door – John Grace – and: Hey, I’d like to talk to you. And that was at the time that I was having so much trouble with Marilee and I kept saying, you know: Don’t come here. I don’t want to talk about it.

Finally he came in and we developed a long relationship of collaborating on information. And Matrix One, every page, came off that desk [points across the room]. And I wish I had that book. My mom passed away and there was one left that she had in mint condition and I gave it to one of my nieces. So I don’t have an original Matrix One. I have an original Matrix Two. And now it’s up to Matrix Five.

Anyway, John Grace was a really interesting guy. He did a hell of a lot of research. He worked for Nellis Air Force Base. And one day during this period, like late ‘87, he wrote a kind of a “State of the Research” - where we were at, as far as what we had found out. And he wrote it. He wanted to get it out, but he didn’t want to use his name. So he wanted to suggest a name and I said: Why don’t you call it Krill? K-R-I-L-L (because the Pentagon dealt with an alien back in ’84 called C-R-L-L-L.)

So he said OK and he came up with, out of the blue, the initials O.H. and it became the “O.H. Krill Papers.” And we weren’t trying to shy anybody on. We weren’t trying to put any false information out. It was just what we thought the state of the art was then. And John wanted to know and we made up that name.

So, later it became a full-fledged disaster because Bill Cooper started coming up then. And Bill Cooper and I did several video interviews. And one of them was PM Magazine in Salt Lake City. And during that interview they asked about “The Krill Papers,” and Bill Cooper said he’d seen them in the Navy 20 years prior! When, you know, John Grace and I had dreamed them up like two months prior to that. [Kerry laughs]

And the other thing was, there was a paragraph out then talking about the Excalibur weapon. And the Excalibur weapon was a weapon that the military were developing that would penetrate 1,000 feet of soil. And Bob Lazar had written that, like two months prior. And Bill Cooper had said he’d seen that in the Navy 20 years prior!

So I took Bill Cooper out of the room and said: What in the hell are you talking about? John Grace and I wrote that Krill paper and Bob Lazar wrote the Excalibur. He said: Well that may be, but I saw them in the Navy.

So that’s when Bill Cooper and I started to split because I couldn’t understand why he was saying stuff like that. And then it became known as “UFO disease.” And UFO disease is where you get so popular in the UFO field and you don’t have anything new to say, you make it up.

K: OK. Well, let me ask you something, because as far as I know, the Matrix books are written by Val Valerian, who is John Grace, right?

J: That’s John Grace. Right.

K: So Matrix Five talks about Planet X, I’m told. I’ve got Matrix Five and I don’t remember seeing Planet X referred to in there. But, you know basically I was just told that it reminded, I guess, that it talks about Planet X. I mean, it certainly talks about everything in there. But, you say Planet X is a complete fallacy. So, are you still in touch with John Grace? Do you know why he says it’s true?

J: No, I don’t know. John Grace... You know, I ordered Matrix Five and I read the first 30 pages and I couldn’t get any further. So... There may be a Planet X. There may be a Nibiru. But it’s not going to destroy Earth in 2012.

K: OK. What about meteors? You know, aimed at this planet, that are heading in.

J: We’ll be protected. You don’t have to worry about meteors.

K: And how, by what?

J: The guys who take care of us.

K: Which is...? Are you talking aliens? Are you talking HAARP?

J: Yeah. Aliens.

K: Do we have any idea which aliens are protecting us? Or do you?

J: Probably the Grays. The Grays are responsible for what we call the physical body, which Bob read up at the test site are the “containers.” They referred to it as containers. That’s their job. They see that everything goes OK. And the container contains the souls. The Grays can change souls from body to body, but their responsibility is not the soul. That’s somebody else. And I don’t know who that person is. The Grays are just here responsible for the “containers.” That’s why there would never - unless it was under extremely unusual circumstances - would a meteor ever hit the Earth. There will be no catastrophe like that.

Let’s keep that thought and I’m going to have something to eat here...

(continued from Part 1)
(continued in Part 3 and Part 4)


Support Project Camelot - make a donation:


Donations are not tax deductible for U.S. citizens.

Thank you for your help.
Your generosity enables us to continue our work.


Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy