Camelot logo An interview with 'Dane Tops':
The man who blew the
Church of Scientology wide open

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Project Camelot interviews Dane Tops
Los Angeles, September 2009


Some of you may have read on our Questions page that I (Bill) have experience in an offshoot of the original Church of Scientology.

But I was utterly surprised when a legendary whistleblower in the Church of Scientology introduced himself to me and told me that what he had to share had something to do with Black Operations. Kerry, who has never studied Scientology, agreed that this whistleblower was very much in the ranks of regular Camelot whistleblowers. We decided to do an interview.

So: we bring you Dane Tops - an almost mythical figure in Scientology history who has never before come forward to tell his story - which is extraordinary even by Camelot standards: all about how the Church of Scientology was taken over in the early 1980s, and the courageous and astonishing way in which Dane blew the whistle, which resulted in tens of thousands of members realizing what was going on - and leaving. Put the coffee on (a lot of it!), read carefully, and Enjoy.


The unusual name ‘Dane Tops’ is a pseudonym, but it is not of Project Camelot’s making. This fascinating story dates back to 1982, when a senior member in the Church of Scientology blew the whistle on its activities… which over the previous several years had become more and more totalitarian and repressive: a far cry from how its founder, L Ron Hubbard, had intended things to be - the techniques as they were once applied being described to us by Dane as a vast, readily accessible array of powerful techniques for liberating and empowering the human spirit so that all mankind could benefit.


The now-famous “Dane Tops letter” or “Dane Tops debrief” describes how the Church of Scientology, over a number of years, was being taken over by a mysterious force, and how Hubbard was deliberately marginalized maligned and removed from direct control of his organization – while instructions apparently originating by him were fabricated with false signatures: never written by Hubbard at all.

Aware there was a hidden party taking Scientology down, Dane Tops blew the whistle: he typed out an inspired, detailed, 9500 word presentation – and, long before the days of e-mail, copied it and posted it to 20 people. To his surprise, a chain reaction ensued and the ‘letter’ was copied, recopied, and recopied again. In today’s terminology, it ‘went viral’.

During the next year it reached and changed the lives of tens of thousands of loyal Scientologists who - until they read Dane Tops’ analysis - could not understand what was happening to Hubbard and to the organization to which they had dedicated their lives.

The ‘letter’ catalyz ed a mass exodus of thousands of highly trained, talented and loyal Scientologists: in Dane Tops' own words, these people were the very finest: the best of the best. They left ‘the Church’, many of them starting their own groups to continue to deliver the original techniques which Hubbard had spent 30 years developing.


Dane relates how the ‘black PR campaign’ to malign Hubbard worked both on the public in general and on the disenfranchised Scientologists, as story after story was spread to discredit Hubbard’s intentions and work. Many of those ‘lifeboat’ groups thus failed, but a small number succeeded and quietly continue to this day as low-profile but substantial organizations.


In September 2009, we recorded an extraordinary audio interview with Dane Tops, who has since become a passionate supporter of everything we at Project Camelot stand for. We’ve released this as a transcript only, because Dane’s life could quite easily still be endangered.


In this interview, Dane tells the true story of the takedown of Scientology. He describes the power of Hubbard’s techniques, which, when applied ethically and by properly trained practitioners, reliably enhance psychic and other abilities to dramatic levels: he explains how the governments and intelligence agencies of Russia and the US became determined to utilize these techniques to their own unethical ends: he recounts how Hubbard was the target of a concentrated black operation - compromised, disempowered, and how ‘the Church’ was infiltrated and taken over: he reveals how he evaded every attempt of ‘The Church’ to stop him: and he shares how he still sees Hubbard’s techniques, correctly applied, as one of the means whereby we can escape the attempted grip and control of the very Illuminati that ended up in control of Scientology in a position to water down its techniques to a mere shadow of what Dane describes that they once were.


Almost in passing, Dane shares what he now believes was an ET contact, coupled with a deep understanding of Hubbard’s basic principles, enabled him in 1982 to go without food, water and sleep for three months - and that during that period Hubbard’s techniques prepared him to understand and further develop the information he received at that time.


He describes fellow Scientologists who also had various enhanced capacities. One such was the well-known Ingo Swann, whose abilities were honed to the point where he, with several other Scientologists including Hal Puthoff, Russell Targ and fellow-psychic Pat Price, was eventually funded by the CIA and - under the auspices of the Stanford Research Institute - launched the entire body of knowledge, ability and protocol that is now known worldwide as Remote Viewing.


So: Dane Tops is a true whistleblower, taking upon himself great personal risk to alert and inform anyone who would listen to the truth of what was happening. ‘The Church’ – which has significant financial resources and an entire private, sophisticated, and sometimes very ruthless intelligence and security apparatus of its own - spent at least $40,000 trying to track down Dane Tops and seal the leak.


Meanwhile, Dane Tops regards the true whistleblower as Hubbard himself - and maintains that his own only role was to make it known that Hubbard was being taken down. He told us that Hubbard was a whistleblower on the IRS, the AMA, on the Psychiatric community, and primarily on “the fact that we are a prison planet with the true secret of our identity intentionally and forcefully withheld from mankind”. Hubbard, he states, was driven by the concept that without techniques to restore mankind’s memory of his activities within this galaxy over long periods of time, history would repeat itself and the civilization on Earth would be destroyed by criminals.


The ‘Church’ never discovered who Dane Tops was. But the government succeeded in stopping Scientology and Ron Hubbard - and effectively watered down its techniques. During the 27 years which followed ‘the letter’, Dane Tops entrusted his true identity with just two of his closest friends. When we were approached by him at the Los Angeles Conscious Life Expo earlier this year (February 2009), we became the third and fourth persons to know. We were delighted and astonished, and we marveled at this remarkable person’s integrity, courage and resolve. His ethics and intentions are identical with those of Project Camelot. We are proud to know him.



Start of interview

Dane Tops [D]: I wanted to say that I have hardly ever run into anyone who got involved with this subject - or offshoots of this subject - after 1975, who didn’t have anything but a very bad opinion toward the Church of Scientology. Personally, I believe that before I (quote) “blew the whistle” the place was already completely infiltrated by the Illuminati. Their intention was to produce exactly that result (a very bad opinion) on the general public. The Church was fully corrupted and made a mockery of what it was intended to be and started out to be. Goal accomplished.

The reason it was infiltrated by the Illuminati is because of the mind control techniques that could be developed from the 1950 book that Ron Hubbard published, and soon after because of the paranormal abilities that Hubbard’s techniques were producing. The Illuminati thought it could not allow humanity to discover their true innate powers and ability.

In the 50s, those abilities were virtually unheard of. Today, there are dozens of understandings in the general public that were not extant then. I believe that Hubbard’s discoveries and techniques filtered down into literally hundreds of subjects from black ops (direct mind control used for dark purposes) on to personal therapies, self help organizations, new religions, cults and into general medical literature now considered standard knowledge.

In the ’40s Hubbard discovered and demonstrated that there is no memory that cannot be recovered. That was startling and unbelievable. At that time he developed techniques to have people recall memories that occurred at birth AND from conception onwards. Memories were verified for accuracy with, for instance, the doctor at birth. Or with the parents for incidents that happened during the pregnancy. He developed techniques that allowed anybody to recall anything in their history with a little work. We’re not talking about imagination; we’re talking about literally verified birth and womb memory: full conversations, and exact events.

Now, he did this work in the ’40s, and he wrote about it in a book called Dianetics, a Modern Science of Mental Health in 1950. The book was a best seller. Russia tried to contact and hire him and the reason Russia wanted him was because they recognized that the techniques in that book could be reversed so that they could develop psychic warfare and mind control techniques.

The Russians realized that the out of body perceptions that Hubbard was developing could be used to spy and collect information from remote locations. The Russians saw that the power of the mind could be focused remotely to influence the thoughts of others at a distance. Russia started testing their children and developing the ones with the most skills. The US followed.

After Camelot, I now realize that at that time - in the 50s - we had just recovered ET bodies in crashed disks. I now see the Russians and the USA were interested in Hubbard’s techniques not due to mutual animosity, but because the governments were really scared about the ET problem. If they’d told Hubbard what was going on, he would have been happy to help and would have done a lot better job of it than our governments did. Hubbard already knew more about the ETs than the governments did, because people were recovering memories of many various races of ETs, of interplanetary wars or prior earth histories of wars, of intelligent robots, clones, cyborgs - you name it. But Russia wanted to use Hubbard’s material without TELLING him what was happening with the influx of crashed disks and recovered ET bodies that escalated immediately following the bombing of Hiroshima.

By the early 60s, Hubbard was teaching the general public openly about his independent discovery that this universe was heavily populated with intelligent life and various life forms and body types. The crashed alien disks would have been SOP [Standard Operating Procedure] to him. He could have really assisted the governments to do a lot better job of it, rather than to screw up the entire theme of contact the way it has been. He would not have been technically overwhelmed by the ETs. He would have sent out ambassadors to access their intent, and these would have been people who had accessed their own memories about the various races populating the universe and who were getting re-acquainted with their history.

Russian efforts to hire him were intense. He was presumed to be someone who could be utilized to develop any number of psychic abilities, warfare abilities and spying abilities. The US versus Russia cold war was not real except to the lower level people. It was a distraction for the public. All this time, UFOs were freely infiltrating US and Russian airspace. The entire cold war was a front and actually the US and Russia were united behind the scenes, at the top, in fighting and attempting to “catch up” with the feared common unknown potential enemy, the ETs.

So the intent to procure him started in the 1950s after the book was published. During the ’50s Hubbard’s provable discoveries about the mind/body/spirit were unheard of. During that time the kinds of results that were being standardly produced on people – my friend here amongst them [Ed. note: present at the interview, anonymity requested], who saw many of these things – were an enhancement of what in common language is known as psychic or paranormal ability.

Some people had levitated, some had seen through solid matter, and others had gone outside of their body with full perception of where they were. When the Russians failed to hire Hubbard, they broke in his home, stole the material, and altered the techniques to begin the Russian mind control programs with the USA doing the same later.

Instead of using his techniques to naturally develop psychic abilities and to recall our past lives and in-between life memories as Hubbard intended, the governments extracted from Hubbard’s works what he’d discovered that has been done down through time to control human behavior through force.

So the modern subject of mind control and Manchurian Candidates and much more was re-researched and developed to a fine art form. As best I know, the techniques were largely “inspired” from Hubbard’s material. I say that because the techniques that have been used, such as the Montauk Chair, are described in detail in Hubbard’s work. That sort of chair has been used down through time and is in our memories from way back. There’s nothing new under the sun. We’ve all been around for a long time.

Hubbard recovered from many persons the same memories of how to control the mind by force and hypnosis. He wanted to undo the effects on all of us by training a world-wide army of people skilled in helping mankind to recover their memory of having a veil put over their minds to the point that we do not know our own past.

It was known by Hubbard and completely acknowledged by the ’50s that we were, or that each human was a spiritual entity, not a body, nor a mind; that all of an individual’s history was recorded in energy patterns in their body cells, but also around their bodies, which he defined as the Mind. He discovered anew that mankind goes forward from life to life to life and memory record is taken forward with the spirit entity or soul which is each person’s complete self. That each person IS a soul rather than HAS a soul was his new major definition of what man IS. In the 50s, this description of the soul was not common.

One thing Hubbard did prove that was... well… he went on a trip around the world to test that his memory was accurate. He went to different locations to verify that just by his recall the memory of locations he had never been in this life was accurate.

Hubbard came out of an era where there were people called Spiritualists who contacted the dead. There were a lot of séances in the US: it had become all the rage. There are newspaper accounts of someone in England in the 1860s doing body levitation and flying out of one upper story window and into another one [Ed note: this was Daniel Dunglas Home].

Blavatsky, a researcher and author who had psychic abilities, actually killed an animal 40 miles away; that’s documented and witnessed. So Hubbard heard about all these things during the era he grew up in. He wanted to find out how these abilities came about, and what the explanation for it was and how come people were reported to do these things. He wanted to understand it scientifically.

Hubbard researched healing techniques and discovered that trauma and pain in our past really affects us negatively and that those effects can be reversed and that they were the cause of all psychosomatic illness or accidents in accident-prone people. His discoveries were phenomenal. The techniques for a full and total recall of past-life memories came soon afterwards. Then, the research to develop psychic abilities to the point that one could see through walls and access all their prior knowledge; do any number of psychic phenomena; these were the kinds of things that were being developed in the ’50s and early 60s.

Ingo Swann was part of the same era. He was still there in the ’70s when I was involved, in Los Angeles, coming up through these levels.

Bill Ryan [B]: What do you mean by levels?

D: Well, in Scientology, they had grades you went through where you progressed from ability to ability to ability, and so Ingo Swann was going through those grades, those levels. There was a magazine that was put out by the Church of Scientology where people that went through these levels would write things that they experienced. Almost every month Ingo was in this magazine with what he had done next, alongside others who were also getting these sorts of results.

People who would report their results, such as moving a car sideways to avoid an auto accident, seeing through walls, going out of the body with all the perception to see and hear, levitating themselves, making things materialize, like that [snaps fingers], healing a chronic illness or a personal relationship that seemed to have been permanently destroyed.

There were some extraordinary healing stories. Later he had to retract any claims that the techniques could heal due to the AMA [American Medical Association] and the psyches [psychiatrists], with whom he ended up in a lifelong battle. At first he offered his discoveries to psychiatry, until he realized that many psyches just wanted to drug people, do lobotomies and use electric shock.

Then he organized his own black ops within his organization in order to expose harmful psychiatric practices with so-called “healing” techniques. His organization spied on the IRS and published records of their crimes. He sent infiltrators from his Church into the IRS to spy. They were quite successful.

Although the governments had not succeeded in hiring Hubbard, they did hire Scientologists who had demonstrated paranormal abilities. They were not hard to find because Scientology published articles about what people were achieving.

Ingo was hired by the government. I mean, he went to work in a program at the Stanford Research Institute with a number of other Scientologists to study paranormal things. I remember reading an SRI report that they were having Ingo heat up objects and measuring how hot he could make them. And that was just the start of what he could do.

What Ingo was doing was not different from the things that a lot of us were doing as a result of the training and what Hubbard named processing, or auditing. That’s what he called it. Hubbard often used computer terms and terms that made it seem very mechanical. But really what we were dealing with and what the discovery was that we were dealing with was a spirit, a spiritual being, and that’s what we are; a spiritual being – an immortal spiritual being with any number of godlike abilities.

Later Ingo became famous as the father of remote viewing, a watered-down word for what he was actually able to do and which many of us were doing, which wasn’t “remote” viewing – but it was out of body: going out of your body with perception, more perception sometimes than you had IN your body. These techniques can be used to keep developing control over time and ultimately control over the dimension that you’re in. Yes.

B: Somebody I knew described it as more like knowing whatever you want to know because you decide you want to know. That’s actually what Hubbard coined the word Scientology as – it’s the study of knowing how to know.

D: Yes, knowing how to know. Well, actually, he didn’t coin the word. You can find in the ’30s in a German book “Scientologie” - spelled differently - with the rudimentary version of what became the Scientology Axioms [Ed. note: Scientologie, by Dr. A. Nordenholz, 1934]. Hubbard discovered many things on his own but he put together amazing things, like... He ended up having to lie and say he was the sole developer of it all, an unfortunate solution for a problem he was having managing his organization. I knew the person who suggested that he lie and how it came about that he did. He had started out acknowledging and giving credit to many of his sources. There was no turning back after he lied about it.

Kerry Cassidy [K]: Somebody gave me that book. Scientologie.

D: You have it?

K: I have it, yes.

D: I’d love to see that. It’s got the original version of a brilliant work called The Axioms of Scientology. Brilliant work. There’s another work he has called The Factors, which I find even...

K: I have it.

D: I’d love to see the book. I haven’t seen it in years.

K: It’s here in my library.

D: Great.

B: Sure. Its “knowing how to know”. I was just making a comment that it is about knowingness rather than acquiring... Acquiring data is like a lower harmonic of this sort of knowingness, that one can sort of permeate anything in the universe at any time and actually extract that information if one’s operating at sufficiently – we’re running into problems of vocabulary here – at a sufficient level of consciousness, one can acquire and download that information.

D: Right. That’s true. Another way to do it is to re-access our own memories. hat’s another way to know. But, you know, to some degree you can get almost anybody to do that. But, if one doesn’t go through some developed discipline, one can’t master levels of energy and success with mental and psychic discipline. And so these discoveries were all happening then in Scientology. It was terribly exciting. That was what we worked on, these kinds of discoveries, at that time.

K: Okay. Can I just interject? Rather than a philosophical discussion, it would be better if the point was made...

D: It’s not philosophical, because even in some of the Camelot interviews... Who was the one that said: This is the greatest secret of all, is the power you have and who you are and what you are. This is the greatest secret.

K: Well, Camelot is saying that. We are saying that.

D: There was a witness also who specifically said that to you.

K: Bob Dean was talking about that.

B: I think what you’re referring to here is what Bill Birnes described Admiral George Hoover as saying: The greatest secret, actually, is the enormous power that all human beings have.

D: Right. Now the trouble with Ron Hubbard was he discovered this greatest secret within the realm of his studies and he discovered techniques to develop enhanced abilities so that he, with his techniques, was producing people who could go out of their body, go in another room, look at anything they wanted, and report accurately what was there. He was producing people who could travel wherever they wanted in the universe and report back on what they’d seen, heat up an object – like they made Ingo do when he went up to Stanford [laughs] – paranormal and psychic... more than psychic... godlike abilities to manifest, appear, disappear and KNOW things.

Ingo tells the story of how they gave him a job of going to the moon. He called it remote viewing, but I assure you, Ingo WENT to the moon! And that’s how the government found out that there were ETs on the moon. And very aware ETs, because Ingo quickly found out that the ETs who were on the moon were able to sense that he was there, even though he went there out of body.

These abilities were why the governments wanted to hire him, learn from him, and develop means to train others to do the same. So Hubbard’s methods could enhance our native natural abilities and could be used for spying operations and war. But as I said, the governments were dealing with ETs and they didn’t tell Hubbard that. The Scientologists were recovering memories of our past, loaded with all kinds of space scenes - Hubbard called it “space opera”. Star Wars and Star Trek were really popular with Scientologists as it was very real to us as our own past.

We didn’t know there was contact in our own present-day, however, and that our governments were going nuts trying to find a way to make our technology AND our mental abilities catch up with the ETs. Developing telepathy was an important part of it all and Hubbard’s materials offered great hope for the development of all these skills and more. And that’s also why the governments wanted his research.

So, enhanced psychic abilities were being produced in Scientology and Hubbard was busy describing the fact that we have such abilities innately, and have been manipulated out of using them by mind control. Russia stole his research and used it to start their psychic development programs on their children.

We did that too, but they were ahead of us, because the Russian psychic programs took Hubbard more seriously. Hubbard casually mentioned the theft of his research materials during a lecture once.

But when Hubbard refused to play along, he became a target TO be feared by the government. They didn’t the public to recover these enhanced abilities, only those children the put into the programs. In addition, they began to recover technology from the ETs about how to control the minds and bodies of mankind.

Their choices about how to utilize all this new knowledge were poor as they were too uninformed about our history in the universe. That’s were Hubbard could have been of far more use to them. So, he became a target to be feared. The governments didn’t want an army of Scientologists capable of knowing what was going on for real.

So, Hubbard went on the run and ended up getting a fleet of ships and escaping governments which were trying to stop Hubbard. He thought he was targeted because he was using his organization to spy on the IRS and the psychiatrists and exposing their crimes. Hubbard didn’t fully know the depth of why he was such a target.

They wanted to use his material to develop abilities like the ETs had - but the governments did not want the general public to get those abilities! And the movement was exploding like wildfire with centers springing up world-wide to teach what Hubbard had learned and use his techniques. So Hubbard lived on the ocean on a constant escape route, trying to get away, directing research programs, developing the techniques, and producing people who restored the innate abilities they have as infinite spirits.

And his purpose was... well, he said that mankind was going to be destroyed soon if there wasn’t a massive change in human consciousness, and he was trying to produce that change using these techniques before it was too late. His goal was to wake us up from our amnesia.

Now, the Church of Scientology was destroyed from within by the US secret government. I’m certain of this. And it was done by the use of children.

As time passed through the 70s, there were so many things about Hubbard that indicated that he was tampered with that indicate that either he was being cloned or he had extraordinary but deteriorating abilities, or a combination of both.

For instance, there are reports of the different kinds of bodies that he had, different wardrobes, fully different size wardrobes. And on the ship, there were reports of somebody being downstairs being taught in a room by him and upstairs, he’s also upstairs working. And that sometimes he was one height and size and the next day he was a different size.

B: I think, if I remember right, it was Geoffrey Filbert who reported that. Isn’t that right?

D: Yes, I think so. He was one of the ones who wrote abut this.

K: Okay, now what I would like to ask is that you’re saying that “based on information you were told.” In other words, why do you know what you know? You might talk a little bit about who you were in the organization.

D’s friend: I was in it from the beginning. Ron’s character stayed the same for many years. But in the late 70s it changed and underwent a full turnaround. I don’t know about cloning, but something happened to change him, something heavy.

He had a heart attack in the 70s, and they had to go ashore in South America to take him to a hospital. It made no sense, and was hidden from the people in the Church. His personality underwent a drastic change. Maybe a clone was substituted. In the last years, he was barely running the Church at all and became interested in music.

It was as if he abandoned his organization and the urgency to save the planet - but he was still alive. He seemed to go farther and farther away from even having an interest in his mission, which had been all-urgent, all-important, and a race against time to save the planet.

D: Well, okay. I didn’t know that cloning existed back then. Until Camelot, I had no idea how developed human cloning is. But whatever happened, he changed, and that was obvious. There are a lot of ways to exert mind control. Maybe that was it. But what we know beyond a doubt is that he was a target, and that he was affected, and that he went from fearless to fearful; from brave to paranoid.

Getting back to the story, I knew lots of people that were high up in the organization, including Hubbard’s family. I knew people who worked directly with him from way back. In the late 70s, Hubbard’s family was separated from him, so they couldn’t see OR talk to him. His wife was later put in jail, his children couldn’t reach him, and he was isolated in order to take him down.

But I was close to his children even after his wife, Mary Sue, was jailed. And so I was able to observe the control and manipulation on his family and hear the resulting upset, confusion and betrayal, because they and everyone else who was cut off thought that Ron was choosing to ignore them and talk with them or see them.

They couldn’t conceive that their powerful father was an unknowing victim of black ops. I knew about the bags of millions of cash dollars that were couriered from one place to another. It took a lot of money to keep from being captured by the government, a lot of money, and he just used it as cash to escape and to fund his own reverse-spy operations back on the government and to buy expensive property outright.

He put up a good fight, but he didn’t know what he was up against and how many resources would be used to take him down. They made a big mistake not telling him about the ETs. We wouldn’t have signed the treaty with the wrong race of ETs if they had utilized his knowledge and hired him directly.

He started out with a sterling intention to help mankind, but little by little his organization was infiltrated, and massively infiltrated in the end, so much so that I don’t even know if the person who eventually died WAS the body of the original Ron Hubbard.

I don’t actually know. and don’t have a way to know. But we do know people that were near him very close to the end, and he was a far cry from what he was in the beginning. Since studying all that I have now, including Camelot, I know we have had full cloning technology of humans since the 60s from aliens, and how very much it is now being employed for “problem leaders”. They just get a new model whenever they are unhappy with the old one.

K: What was your role in the organization?

D: Well, I had a job in the organization that I did. In my job I was someone who heard a lot of things about stuff that was going on because people would tell me things in confidence and because of that I learned about things that were going on.

K: You’re not answering the question because you don’t want people to know what your specific job was? It’s okay if you don’t want to them to know.

D: One of my jobs in the organization was called auditor, which meant someone that listened to someone else talking about their concerns and problems.

B: It’s a kind of therapist.

D: And who keeps a confidence.

K: But not a traditional kind of auditor that... there are millions of auditors. You were just one of them, or something special?

D: No, Hubbard called it that. It was a strange name as far as I’m concerned. An auditor was someone that used his techniques to assist people to get their memory and abilities back, the kind of abilities you really have as a being – not only a human being, but as a spiritual being.

K: Okay, but there were many of those, right? And you were one of them, right?

D: I was one of them.

K: How many were there approximately? Do you know?

D: I don’t know. Thousands, before the exodus. I really don’t know.

K: Okay. What I’m trying to establish here is how you said you were “up high” or you had “access to up high” in the organization. What I’m trying to kind of get at for the people who are going to read this is: How high were you in terms of your job? And then how high – you kind of indicated your informal access was to family members. But how high were you in terms of the formal structure?

Because you blew the whistle on an organization that you were a part of. Right? You had a job in that organization on a certain level, so I was just trying to figure out... Like if you were going to paint a picture for people... if we were saying something like this on the government and they were the Secretary of State that would be a title within that organization. They had a title. I don’t know if you had a special title besides a general title such as auditor.

D: It was a general title. I had a couple of general titles. I was near the center of power, so to speak. When I discovered corruption, my intention was not to expose their inter-organizational crime and blow a whistle in order to destroy or hurt anything. My intention was to repair.

That’s why I wrote the letter - and if it couldn’t be repaired, my intention was to at least set people free from was becoming a kind of tyranny. I wanted it to inspire the power to find who was behind it all and create the ability to stand up against the structure that was authoritarian and taking Hubbard and his organization down.

I didn’t know then that it was the US secret government destroying Scientology from within, and that’s why it was so impossible to fight it. We - Scientologists worldwide - were a strong group, united in a worldwide mission that we all believed in, but we didn’t have a bloody clue where to look for the hidden third factor.

Well, the US black ops were the hidden third party. And indeed many things that Hubbard predicted I saw come true - which was, if the organization of Scientology broke up into splinters and didn’t stay a united group that could maintain the high quality and purity of the delivery of the techniques, then Scientology couldn’t and wouldn’t maintain its ability to produce a worldwide result.

And indeed it did not. Now there’s many, they call them splinter groups, many that lost the core of the subject and its best features. But the parent organization lost their values first, paving the way for a schism.

The IRS and CIA and beyond now oversee the Church of Scientology... the techniques have been watered down so that you don’t find many many people achieving the kinds of results that once existed.

The Church is no longer a threat, and Hubbard is a public laughing stock, completely made to look like a criminal and charlatan - using the very Scientologists who loved him to take him down. They’re totally unaware that they were all victims of a massive campaign to take down the Church of Scientology.

You don’t find as many people in Scientology now that can go outside of their body and travel at will anymore - or who even focus on that achievement. You don’t find people that can levitate or move their cars sideways on the freeway in an emergency. There was a massive public campaign to make less of such accomplishments and turn them into unimportant “tricks”, even in the New Age movement. But at one time there were real physical-universe results of accomplished enhanced abilities like these. That’s what the government didn’t want: people were finding out they did not have to be slaves of their bodies.

What it took to destroy Hubbard and Scientology was a concentrated calculated operation that turned members against the Founder and against each other. It was the old divide-and-conquer technique. The people of this planet have no idea the degree of manipulation we are under. Our minds are studied like rats in a maze and we’re all manipulated accordingly.

Our support of our leaders, or our protest against our leaders, all falls into line according to the plans of the controllers. The general plan is to break all sovereignty completely and to allow the continuation of an ignorant slave population. That ignorance was threatened by Scientology and the benevolent ETs who came to warn us. Only waking from our sleep can save us now.

Hubbard said this very clearly early on: This is a prison planet. We’re being imprisoned on the planet and our ignorance is the main tool of our entrapment. There were nuclear wars on earth a long time ago. Scientific evidence came out that nuclear glass was being found every place on the Earth and there have been other massive explosions on Earth long ago.

There’s evidence now that there were other civilizations here. Many of the current group on Earth is implanted and hypnotized here as prisoners. The people or the souls, or the actual spirit beings we are that are here are not here by accident. Many can’t get off the planet because we’re held here in an electronic field of amnesia.

We can’t wake ourselves up enough to gather the science to deal with periodic cyclic Earth changes because we’re so mind-controlled and so many of us live like Truman did in the Truman Show. There’s a lot of truth in that movie.

And I would say that the principal mind control techniques that were extracted from Hubbard, and now used on people like Duncan [O’Finioan] and others in the super-soldier program were originally developed using the discoveries Hubbard made about how the mind works.

I bet wherever he is, he is one angry guy now to have found out what his discoveries have been used for. Hubbard found similar things in the memories of thousands of people, as they started to really recall their past: he discovered that the way that these past-life and in-between-life “implants” are most effective is to use electricity.

That’s when a being is delivered a great deal of electronic voltage, along with commands to behave in a certain way or to limit themselves or selectively enhance themselves in certain ways. People were recalling independently that electrical and electronic techniques have been used to implant the free soul out of body for literally millions of years.

It messes with the auric and mental circuits, you could say. Electricity is confused by the being with his own similarly powerful energy. These implants confuse and destroy memory and the person’s own power of energy production is destroyed or limited.

Behavior is controlled. It’s been historically controlled down through time. In the last few decades implants were developed, once again, to a fine art form. Now our own governments have it and use it to develop their push-button assassins and other behaviors using electroshock, hypnosis, chemical and other traumatic physical manipulation.

Soon after Hubbard’s information came out about our ancient history and what really happened, the governments started using their SS psychiatrists to experiment with electricity and use real-time mental and psychic implants to control behavior.

Thousands of children, the best subjects they could find, have been kidnapped into such programs, because they’re prime subjects with the most potential. Ron Hubbard called it ‘P-D-H-ing’ someone. That means using Pain, Drugs and Hypnosis to control behavior and to mind control them.

So I’m convinced that in Russia and in the US in modern times the techniques that now create super-soldiers, that created the entire mind control program, started in this 1950s era - partly by studying Hubbard and recreating what he discovered had been done to us that we had in the records of people who recalled millions of years back in time and saw that in the present, we’re about to repeat the past again.

And partly by reverse-engineering crashed disk technology and partially by trading with ETs for technology. Hubbard put out the knowledge that such techniques have worked throughout our history, dating back millions of years. We just recreated it.

Psychiatric electric shock implants became popular by the 60s as routine psychiatric tools. Seeing as we had SS psychiatrists directly imported in [Project] Paperclip there were plenty of willing psyches to do the dirty work in mind control, sex slaves, messengers who relay political data and forget it like a robot, and super-soldier prototypes. For behavior modification, the making of assassins and sex-slaves and spies. We developed the know-how to segment the person into different personalities: that was developed to a fine art form.

Because when you study what’s happened to these super-soldiers, what the psychiatrists were being hired for, to cause people to behave in a certain way, using electronics – and simultaneous hypnotic control or commands that are delivered at the time that one is in the state of electric shock, then that’s effective on a long-term basis, and that is the way these super-soldiers are created.

Pain plus chemical brain alteration plus deep commands are how the behavior is modified. Mind control can be done through pain without electricity too. The way the mind works when commands are given during pain was discovered and written up in 1950 by Hubbard in his first book.

Within a few years, the techniques were being creatively utilized for the Dark Side. Nazi Project Paperclip doctors were given the information to enhance their new employment in the USA. History has repeated itself. At the same time, there was a exploding populist movement to use these techniques on ourselves, by partnering with another and using the knowledge in the book.

Now Hubbard showed us how to reverse these techniques that are sometimes done to us in between lifetimes for the purpose of keeping our memories destroyed - to keep us in Earth prison. He showed us how to recover knowledge of who we are and what our personal histories are.

My friend here has worked on undoing electric shock. I did it with one person too... and what an undertaking when it happens on one’s current body. It takes skill, but there are methods to undo electric shock: where the effect can be reversed, and memory and body health can be restored.

But it does require that you take it to the point of being able to remove the spirit fully out of their body – because the brain circuits are partly destroyed by that kind of electronic application – so the person’s got to have more than just a body healing.

But if you can remove a being from his body, they have the power to heal their own body and heal what’s happened to their synapses, and, most of all, core spirit energy, from those kinds of experiences.

So I believe that it’s not what I did personally that has to do with the whistleblower thing. It’s the significance of who L. Ron Hubbard was and what he tried to do about the world situation. He bit off more than he could chew.

I believe that the US government is now under partial control of a race of dark ETs - because the government did not know how to evaluate which race of them to trust. The US government and other governments took the information from Hubbard’s work and they are using its dark-sided, morphed modern versions to keep civilization from knowing the very secret he discovered about OUR power. The new techniques allow you to destroy memory, not recover it. They allow you to dumb down a population, not wake them up.

We ALL have these kinds of memories. We’ve ALL been messed with. When memory is restored, we find that we ALL end up remembering how we got here or were sent here through these nefarious methods where we were implanted – implanted meaning... while using electronics, we were given behavior modification hypnotic control commands to keep our natural, real, true abilities limited and to not really know who we are, where we came from: to not have a memory that goes back millions of years, like some of these ETs have. Right? And now some whistleblowers and some ET contacts are acknowledging that indeed this is a prison planet.

So you can listen to recordings in the ’50s and ’60s where Hubbard’s talking about all of this. Many people in Scientology recovered similar independently derived memories... we all have knowledge and memory: we can recall the galaxy teaming with intelligent life and a huge variety of life forms, and all the things that are now coming out in Camelot.

Ron Hubbard would have LOVED Camelot! He would have offered to demonstrate his techniques in public so people could observe how memory is recovered. In fact, he did that for the public in many demonstrations and lectures in the 50s.

In the ’50s and ’60s we in the Church of Scientology were talking about all this because we sat around remembering our history. We loved Star Trek because we REMEMBERED its reality as life in this universe! We remembered being in different bodies, different races, being different kinds of ETs, being robot bodies – you as a spirit occupying a robot body or bodies that looked like dolls, or being at what is a higher dimension, which is just spiritually, really functioning at a higher level, and we have been the fourth dimensional and fifth dimensional and so on. I mean, all of that is a matter of restoring our memory records.

B: And for example, just to support what you’re saying, in 2006 Bill Deagle in his Granada Forum lecture was talking about the Illuminati being controlled by higher dimensional demonic entities.

D: Right. And, you know, these entities are looked at as pretty frightening by normal humans, but it’s because humans don’t have ways to become comparable to those entities in power or in understanding: to have comparable abilities to entities that are stuck in a repetition of (quote) “evilness” or “acts of control, domination and power,” rather than having their own freedom.

K: Okay, so that’s been established, and I understand what you’re saying. Certainly he had those techniques and he was aware of all of that. But I actually think that the occult goes back a lot further than Hubbard. Hubbard was born relatively recently, so those techniques did exist in the occult in various disciplines. Do the illuminati come from those disciplines?

D: As a matter of fact, Hubbard studied with Crowley. He studied with Crowley, so the techniques to enter the dark side did exist and he studied their application and what they were, but the techniques to UNDO “the Dark Side” did not much exist, and that is what Hubbard discovered. And that was uniquely different.

After he proved that memory could be recovered from the womb and birth, many methods were derived to find these memories. One of those is now well-known as Rebirthing. Hubbard was the inspiration for many such things.

Even the brain was investigated after his book came out. Surgeons touched parts of the open brain to see if certain memories resided in certain parts of the brain. After Hubbard’s book proved that the memories exist, there was an explosion of studies and therapies and research, none of it now attributed to his discoveries.

K: I understand. Okay, so given that, now let’s fast-forward to you are a person within this organization, these things are happening, these people are being trained to get, you know, to basically free themselves using these techniques.

Russia’s interested in Hubbard. So let’s now explain sort of what propelled you to do what you were doing. In other words, can you maybe chronicle just in a superficial way to some degree or in as much depth as you want, what was corroding the organization and how it came along and then why... like something of the drama that brought you to the place where you wrote this letter and then what the letter did.

D: Well, for a start I believe that I have had extraterrestrial contact.

K: Okay.

D: And the reason I say that – and I’ve only recently come to the realization that it’s probably what happened – is because the way that I accessed certain understandings of the universe was that I had a great deal of revelation about what happened to mankind at our inception, or at the inception of the human race, and I went into various states in which I could time-travel and be fully out of my body and go where I wanted.

But the reason I think there was ET intervention on me is that I didn’t eat any food or drink any water for three months, and I didn’t sleep for three months. During that entire time, I was manifesting an extension of Hubbard’s techniques that went beyond... that were a continuation beyond what Hubbard did.

And I realized some things that were stuck that wouldn’t allow Scientologists to progress. I felt Hubbard could progress and get out of whatever ailed him, he had some problem and it was becoming undeniable that something was deeply wrong with him. He had become paranoid. Now I know why. It was well-founded. He had no idea of the kind of technology used against him. The “hidden” factor is what makes it so dangerous.

I was very determined at that time, with a small group of people I was working with, to get to him. But he was basically held a paranoid prisoner in the desert in California [Ed. Note: Gilman Hot Springs] and we couldn’t get to him, He died shortly after in a pretty nefarious, intentionally neglected and despicable way.

But that level of ability I had for three months: not eating, sleeping or drinking water... the abilities only stopped short in that I could not stop breathing. I still had to breathe, but all other body functions I didn’t need anymore. I never slept, and I was more wide awake than I’d ever been wide awake. During that whole three months I experienced a continual amassing of knowledge. I experienced being many places in many dimensions. I learned much about our past, and there was a full transcendence of time. I was in simultaneity without break for three months.

K: So you were working with a small group of people.

D: Actually I was alone when all this happened - not with the others directly. I just didn’t see them and was not in a state to be able to explain it to them.

You know, we’re hearing about in Camelot how we are hybrids and how we were genetically engineered. But it’s more than genetic engineering, its also spiritual engineering, and very precise entity engineering. And so, in that three months I was shown, and I never knew quite how it was I was shown, but I thought recently it must have been that I was contacted, because when I started to get this information there were many, many, many beings talking to me that came to me in the room and I thought: Why me?

Because I didn’t see that I had done very much to deserve all that understanding and knowledge. But for whatever reason, I downloaded this extraordinary information and then I just understood a concept of stepping stones that were an extension of what Hubbard did.

Another person in the little group broke it down and made further discoveries. He wrote it up and taught others how to deliver new techniques derived from these discoveries. But all of what I received is not intact today in a delivery form. Much of what I utilized and what I downloaded is still with me. I’d like to see the work completed. Camelot has been a revelation, as much of what I learned in the download is being revealed by ETs.

K: You got information. What information?

D: Information about how the human race was constructed. Information about missed steps in Scientology. Others have discovered techniques to enhance Scientology, but all too often they leave behind parts of it that should still be used.

I discovered a crucial understanding that Hubbard had missed. Most everyone in the subject back then had received new abilities, but some went out of body and couldn’t maintain the ability. Now I know what to do so that abilities can be a magnified and maintained. I don’t have an organization to deliver it, though, and my small group never took it all the way.

K: And are you able to put that in words?

D: In words? What that technique is? Let me see... We are each of us infinite in our abilities to create energy, and we naturally have infinite energy, BUT when we do not manifest it in a way that is free, it boomerangs on us and our own energy fields are confused so that we can’t actually use them.

And when we can’t use them, we can’t manifest as we are and so we lose abilities. Our infinite energy is infinite. We must learn to direct and manage it or it turns inward on us.

One must learn to USE it, or the misdirected energy will abuse oneself and others. We’re structured to flow energy and manifest. We can’t NOT do that without removing ourselves from life.

Eastern religions are based on dealing with our energies by removing ourselves. Buddha did, and that is your life work then. Not to live and manifest, but to remove and disengage to end all suffering.

Suffering is not from living, but from not understanding that desire and life and energy must be manifested as one really IS in order NOT to become destructive.

If you don’t know what you are, you can’t understand your abilities and educate yourself in their happy utilization and enjoy your gifts for pleasure, rather than pain.

You’ve got to become educated as the infinite soul you are. So, from where we are, we need to successively deal with a larger and varied energy field so that we can manifest energy that’s more and more developed. Defining this as the model of expansion was actually discovered by one of us in the small group and written up in extensive files along with training courses and techniques to begin to deliver these abilities.

So by increasing our own ability we can deal with these entities we hear about that are these hyper-dimensional evil entities and so on, we can connect to them. We have the ability to go beyond, stand ground, and to talk to them, and to communicate with them, and to assist them to get out of their own repeating dark destructive patterns.

But we can’t do that unless we go through certain processes ourselves to reach these different levels – and to undo what’s been done to us or what we’ve done in our own past, which is keeping our energy boomeranged against ourselves. Then we can again put our energy outward.

I don’t know if that was clear!

K: Okay. That was the beginning. That’s interesting. So from there you were working with a small... initially you said you were alone and you kind of developed this technique in which you could basically become a Breatharian, in essence to live on air. And did you use sunlight at all to energize yourself?

D: Yes. You could get nutrition from sun and air, and I never got past that point of not eating, sleeping or drinking water. My body got lighter, but I wasn’t levitating except on one occasion.

K: Okay. So you’re using this, you’re doing this on your own but at the same time you’re part of the organization, I’m assuming.

D: Well, officially I was.

K: And then you were working with a small group.

D: And I was also working with a small group. Yes.

K: Do you want to say how small?

D: Three people.

K: So, two other people.

D: Two other people. It takes basically a triangular energy to generate power. Two terminals, Positive and Negative, and a Ground. It’s good to work with three people until you can do it yourself.

B: Do you still have those techniques? Could you get back in touch with them, or have you somehow disconnected from them?

D: I intentionally recreated the necessity to sleep again. I’ve always regretted it. I don’t sleep a lot of the time. I sleep about three nights a week, maybe 25 hours a week. But that’s more than I would like.

B: Very interesting.

D: It’s an entire structure that makes you sleep, and it’s very exact. You have to know it, and you have to know how to undo it, because it’s intentional that we sleep, and it’s how we deal with all our not fully conscious energy. Without REM [Rapid Eye Movement] sleep. we go insane.

But once you’ve dealt with these energies and contacted and eliminated the automatic installed sleep programs, you don’t need to sleep. Sleep is a way to handle the fact that we’re ignorant as a spiritual and physical being. But when you’re not, you don’t need to sleep.

We need sleep to repair health every night as it is, because we’re ignorant of health. You don’t need to sleep, ultimately. But you have to know how to get to the other side of sleep. We are all drug-dependent, sop to speak, and we don’t even know what that means when I say it.

B: Very interesting.

D: Not sleeping is not just an ability to acquire by learning it. You have to be able to go through the energy fields that are boomeranged on you. Part of it is dietary, too. You have to clean up all the toxins before you can work on the deeper installed spiritual mechanism of sleep.

B: There’s a bunch of questions there! But let’s stay on the topic.

D: Sure.

K: So it’s a little bit like following a plot. So here you are, you’re doing this technique and you’re breaking through certain levels that you think are holding back at least Ron Hubbard and his organization on some level.

D: Well, holding back all of mankind. What Ron Hubbard discovered was why mankind is trapped and why mankind in the condition it is. He wanted to free us. He put the organization there because he wanted it to free everyone on the planet.

But, instead, it was heavily attacked and he was attacked, and it was finally taken down through children. And I believe those children themselves were part of a psychic program, because those children were given jobs in the organization to run the adults.

They were called “The Messenger Org”. They never went to real school. They were like five, six, seven years old. They were his servants and the only people who could get close to him.

B: Were they that young?

D: Yeah!

B: I didn’t know that.

D: Oh yeah, you bet they were, it’s all they knew.

K: Did they go on the boat? How many children, and did they go on the boat with him?

D: Yeah, they were the only ones who had access to Ron. The adults couldn’t even get to him, only the children could. And it’s the children who took over the organization. The person that runs that organization today was one of those children that started out very young.

K: Okay. And how many children? Do you know?

D: I don’t know how many there were. Hundreds. In the end they fought it out. I mean at the end there were three or four of them that were fighting it out for control of the Church and they were like 12 years old, or not much older. One of them won, and he got control of that Church.

B: Let me clarify this just a little bit by bouncing this off you - because it kind of sounds a bit weird. What you’re saying is that these children served as messengers.

D: They called them that.

B: Right, but let me tell you what I understand, because I was never in the Church, and I was never a part of that environment at all, so I’ve got no personal experience.

What I’d understood was that they served as messengers, both verbal messages and written messages, but the reason why they had power was because they had the power to change the message, or not deliver the message, or to falsify messages.

D: That’s right. And there must have been instruction to them that programmed them to know how to do alter directions until they themselves became instilled with the personal drive for power and dominance. They were intentionally programmed to have enormous egos.

B: And therefore that put them in entire control of the communications, like a spy program in a computer.

D: They were. Exactly.

B: And they could do absolutely anything they wanted to.

D: That’s right, and they did. They totally did. They totally did. Many communications never got to Ron. Many were altered. He ended up afraid or withdrawn, a Howard Hughes-type figure. No one else talked to him but the children.

K: So who recruited the children initially?

D: Well, I believe that the government infiltrated sleeper and conscious adult agents into the Church who trained the children; that there programs with secret intentions that went on with the children, but that it wasn’t known to the parents, and was hidden in plain sight.

K: Agents who were members of the organization, you’re saying.

D: Exactly. Exactly. But the children were programmed to become inhuman and not like children; they became an entity unto themselves.

K: They were trained, brought up in the organization, so to speak, and trained in these methods.

D: Well, not trained very well in actual Scientology, not the real techniques, but the powerful military side of things. Entire sections became like the Gestapo.

K: Okay.

D: Not educated in real Scientology very well at all. They were taking down the real Scientology.

K: They were infiltrated in a sense that somehow, but did you feel that...? Like let’s say we have a kid, would you feel the child and the parent would be infiltrated by the CIA?

D: They were separated from their parents.

K: They were separated?

D: Yeah.

K: How?

D: Because there was, it was called The Messenger Organization. It was within the Church. and the parents would be working in some section of the organization and the children would be going through their own training, which was supposed to be like regular school - but wasn’t so much like regular school. It was highly disciplinarian.

The person who took over the Church when Hubbard died wasn’t even a high school graduate. He did NOT have a good education. But he was trained in force and he was trained to dominate. He was trained in control. He was trained in using power, and he runs that organization that way.

B: What you’re saying is that the conditioning, so to speak, came much more from the organization than from the parents, and it’s almost like...

D: I think there was an organization within the organization, because the IRS ended up running... I mean, the place was loaded with IRS agents and lawyers that ran it, which took over the Church.

B: Yes.

K: And what year was this when that happened?

D: It happened fully in the ’80s. The final coup.

B: I remember that another whistleblower, Bill Robertson, who we may or may not end up talking about, named Alan Hibbert as also one of the infiltrators - and also, I believe, the Broekers. All of this is in the public record and it’s extensively debated on the internet. But the point is that there was good reason to believe that there were agents in place....

D: Oh, there has to have been.

B: this pyramidal structure that was complicit in this takeover and many of them were sleepers, so to speak, that had been there for a very long time. And all this was going on alongside you because you were also fairly senior. I think this was the question Kerry was asking. You were fairly senior in this pyramidal structure. Is that accurate?

D: No, I was close to people that were senior in the structure.

B: Okay. All right.

D: See, it’s my belief that the FBI, the CIA and the IRS, the AMA and the American Psychiatric Association, all together joined in taking down Scientology because it was exposing each one of them because Hubbard was spying on them and releasing their own incriminating documents - and openly curing disease in the 50s.

He published a periodical of listed crimes with the time, location and events, with names. He made enemies, alright. But the biggest threat was that Hubbard was a threat to the Illuminati, to the Anunnaki, because he had much truth about our past, about who we actually are. The Anunnaki don’t want us to keep remembering our history! And he researched and published successful techniques to free us of our amnesia. He just didn’t know the Controllers are STILL here, and never left!

K: How did these people begin the take-down? In other words, how did it manifest?

D: It manifested through children. Those children in The Messenger Org were not the same as the people in the regular organization. They were not the same. They were separate.

K: But I’m saying you’ve got auditors, you’ve got the Scientology organization operating, so how did, literally, the takedown occur? Do you even know? I mean, I’m just asking.

Like in other words, was there... let’s say... I’m just going to guess: was there some human being besides a child who went into a position of power, who became sort of an insidious leader?

D: It has to have happened on an invisible adult level first. But the children manifested the takeover. There was corruption that happened where people were compromised, as was Ron. Ron didn’t know the real enemy.

And true to the age old technique, his own justice system ended up turned in on the members themselves. L. Ron Hubbard was compromised, and I don’t know which L. Ron Hubbard, but L. Ron Hubbard was compromised and made to be paranoid and it became an organization of dominating enforcement. His carefully thought out justice system, which he simply called Ethics, became a series of kangaroo courts.

People lost the real evolution of a workable human justice or ethics system and blamed the now travesty on the original for the crimes now committed using THAT as the means.

His real ethics system was a work of genius, but was subverted and used to commit horrible crimes against members. We blamed the system, and didn’t know it had been intentionally corrupted and turned suppressive to the members themselves in order to take them all down.

Hubbard became blinded with paranoia and it started bit by bit, way back. From fearless to frightened. If he only knew there was good reason to be frightened, but, as he said, if you know the real reason for something you can DO something about it. You can deal with it. The truth sets us free.

K: He ended up taking money? Or they started changing the techniques?

D: Money was taken off the front lines, but Hubbard allowed or participated early on in using forcefulness to control people and to try to discipline them. Desperate.

Major mind control technique. Entice a pure being to commit one act of compromise, and he is so basically good that that act becomes an Achilles Heel until he can see WHO manipulated him and why and what his own part in it was.

B: Let me make a suggestion here, which is also in the form of a question. Because, as I was saying, I wasn’t around at this time. What I understand is that, for example, a message would come through apparently from Hubbard with apparently his signature on it saying: Don’t do it that way, do it THIS way from now on. This is an order.

And nobody ever really knew whether this came from Hubbard. It could have been falsified because the messengers were fully in control of the communication.

And even to this day there are debates about whether Hubbard’s signature has been falsified on certain – they’re called Technical Bulletins – because everything that has got to do with defining the exact details of how a beneficial process should be applied was defined by Hubbard, and as his research was refined over the years he would periodically make alterations and amendments and upgrades, like I’ve discovered a better way to do this; do it this way. Or there’s a better way to do this, do it that way.

And all you’ve got to do is to have somebody faking that and then say: I’ve got a better way to do it; do it this way, and actually was it is was sabotaging the process and producing a completely different result.

There’s been extensive research done – actually it’s sort of like historical research – done in the context of the Church of Scientology now, just looking up and backing up how everything’s been changed and changed and changed.

D: That’s entirely correct. The subject is now a shadow of what it once was. Periodically, I walk in one of their organizations. I’m not in bad standing as my actual self. I can walk in and out and say hello to people who know me and, you know, nobody knows anything.

I maintain good standing and I go in and look at what they’re doing, and it’s absolutely a different subject, almost not recognizable, and the things that had the most power are so watered down that they’re ineffective.

Ron is made into a cult icon. It’s now a cult mythology. They tell the people he died because he “wanted” to go on to do his next level and his body was holding him back. What a crock! They make movies these days that make him look like an ascended God. He would have been disgusted.

B: Yes. Okay.

D’s friend: ... Destruction of it from places very, very powerful and very high up on the levels. Senior technical persons changing the workable procedures. And that went on because The Messenger Org had a tremendous control and used it, and the children went crazy.

K: They went crazy?

D’s friend: They went crazy with power because Ron would say go out and tell somebody to do something and the children would go out and say: Here I am, L. Ron Hubbard. The child basically would say that and the people would say: Okay, fine, I’ll do whatever you say. Just imagine a nine-year-old or a seven-year-old with that kind of power. Pretty awesome.

K: So they believed them.

D’s friend: Absolutely. Well, that was the policy. They were Ron’s Messengers who were supposed to give his exact communications as he gave it to them.

B: It’s very hard to imagine. I think it’s very hard for the new generation of Scientologists to really understand that. This is one of the reasons why what we’re recording here is as useful as a historical document.

D: My friend here was in it from 1950 when the book first came out. He’s one of the so-called old-timers. They call them that. Most of them are dead.

D’s friend: Very few of us left.

D: Very few are left. Very few have what it takes physically to live old like you have.

B: We were talking about how things were altered, and how they got sand in the works, and things were gradually changed. And the power was more and more in the hands of the children and less and less in the hands of the people who really were competent. And there’s an example – I guess you captured it about how Bill Robertson... is it worthwhile explaining who Bill Robertson was?

D’s friend: There was this guy named Bill Robertson, and he had gone up in the hierarchy and he was a captain in the Sea Organization on the ships, and he had various stories. One of the stories was that one of the ships was in France and he’d tell us that the ship shouldn’t go back to England because if they did the government would confiscate it. So the kids that were running the center of communication at that point said: Forget it. We aren’t paying any attention to that. So the ship came back and the government actually confiscated it. That kind of thing.

And one time when Robertson was in England, and Ron and he were about three buildings apart – Ron was in a building, Robertson was staying in another apartment about three apartments away – and Ron sent some communication to Robertson, the children picked it up and the kids brutally said to Robertson that Ron doesn’t like what you’re doing and you’re in a lower condition.

B: What do you mean a lower condition?

D’s friend: You’re in disfavor, so therefore you’re going to have to make some amends to make up for what you’ve done - whatever it was at that particular time.

And the report was an invention of the kids, a ten-year-old or eight-year-old, whatever he was. And so Robertson fell out of favor, didn’t know that Ron didn’t say that himself, and there was a lot of fallout from that episode. Those kinds of things because of the Messenger Org went on more and more as the Messenger Org children got more and more power.

D: Bill Robertson wasn’t the only one it happened to. Many, many powerful people that were high up that had tremendous ability to technically create and assist others to become aware of their own psychic abilities and...

The Church of Scientology was fighting the IRS, they were fighting psychiatry, they were certainly fighting electric shock techniques of any sort, and they were fighting drugs, medical drugs, and all drug use. They put out a magazine detailing the crimes of these agencies and organizations. That really made enemies. He had no fear in telling the truth and exposing this stuff.

His techniques didn’t utilize any hypnosis or drugs in order to assist somebody to have an extensive recall of millions of years of their own history and to realize that this is really the nature of existence, that we’re all eternal spirits.

That knowledge was common for us in those days and it was NOT done through these techniques that have since become popular: getting regressed and somebody else tells you what your history was, and having drugs so you can find out, having hypnosis so you can find out.

The techniques that he came up with were pretty straightforward. You actually could remember, yourself, no different than you know what you ate for breakfast. You could remember what you were doing a thousand years ago and it really didn’t feel that different once you were developed to a certain point. There was nobody else who ever told you anything about yourself with these techniques; it was purely your own memory. The techniques were not mind control. They reversed mind control.

K: So to get to this place where we have the organization being infiltrated in various ways and the children of members being targeted, you know, and being messed with in the process. Right?

D: Right.

K: So they interfered with the lines of communication such that rifts occurred in the organization.

D: Right.

K: Were there also individuals who maybe started to manifest things? Like you said, the organization was against drugs, but also people that were, probably – I’m guessing, you can correct me – embezzling money, encouraging drug use, doing power games, possibly using various negative techniques?

D: As far as I could tell, anything like that came from the top only. It wasn’t people in the organization. At the top, Hubbard had to hide. He ordered money taken off the top. He had to hide and he had to escape constantly from various governments. That’s why he was out in the ocean. And he...

K: But at the top of the organization? You’re saying those things would have done at the top?

D: Not drugs that I know of, but money. Unbelievable sums of money were siphoned off the organization and carried, hand carried, so that Hubbard could maintain an ability to not be found. In paper bags sometimes!

A million bucks in a paper bag!

K: Okay, so you’re saying some of the money. The big thing about at least that I remember about Scientology was that it cost a huge amount.

D: Huge! And they manipulated the public to get it. They promised they would get so many abilities, they would make back the money they borrowed and gave to the Church. Mortgaging houses, credit cards etc.

K: And then people were funneling money in there and you’re saying some of it went to Hubbard. I’m assuming not all of it went to Hubbard.

D: Well, much of it did, and to buying land outright. Now, in the present day the money goes to the person who took over; one of the children. They probably get it off the top the way Hubbard once did, only they’re also in cahoots with the IRS and the government, they are not hiding like Ron was, cause they made peace with the criminals. The Church had so much dirt on the IRS that David Miscavige used it to demand that they back off the Church. It was pure blackmail. Miscavige’s blackmail dropped the “charges”.

K: At the top of the triangle, did you know the names of people who became instrumental in...? I didn’t read your letter yet, so I don’t know if it named names.

D: Not at all. Not at all.

K: So you didn’t name names. But were you aware of the names of people who were instrumental in infiltrating and in bringing in other infiltrators?

D: Let me try to remember. Give me a minute. Can you remember who was...? (Addressing his friend)

K: And you don’t have to publicize them.

D: It’s okay. I’m just asking my friend if he recalls names. This is like so old for me. Almost 30 years ago. I don’t recall names of adults who were really messing stuff up. I recall some children’s names. Do you recall? It seemed that there were really compromised people.

D’s friend: They formed a Watchdog Committee.

D: Oh yeah, the Watchdog Committee. They were bad. They were adults.

D’s friend: It was composed of an IRS member. I don’t know his name.

D: That was it. That’s how they did it.

D’s friend: One IRS member, three lawyers and there was one senior official from the Church. So basically it was the Watchdog Committee... Ron set this up with jurisdiction over the entire organization, policy-wise, and they could come in and correct whatever needed to be corrected.

D: Ron did? Well, if that was true and he allowed the IRS in, one of the worst enemies, then he was fully compromised or that is an altered false report that he set that up that way. And they, the Watchdog Committee could kick ass too, kick people out; they could do all kinds of stuff to their personal business and lives and reputations – whatever they wanted if they wanted to destroy somebody and decided they were an enemy of the organization.

D’s friend: Basically, the orientation of the Watchdog Committee became legal, so they formed up dummy corporations to protect the money, like four or five corporations deep. A tremendous amount of money was involved and basically they came from a legal structure, organization, and various appropriations of publishing corporation and so forth became separate entities and...

D: The publishing corporations watered down the material.

D’s friend: The juniors, the children, the guy who runs the Church now was one of the messengers and there was about five of them and the battle that ensued was that he finally came out on top.

D: Yes. The children fought for control and this guy got it.

B: David Miscavige. This is all in the public domain.

D: Pat and Annie Broeker... They fought each other to get control. We were all watching and wondering who was going to get control. Big drama in high places. Lots of bodies.

K: Okay. So but when this was happening, because what we’re trying to do is build the scenario up to your writing the letter, so I’m trying to paint that and so I was wondering: At what point did you become aware, if you can remember the year?

D: At the time, ’80, I think, ’79, ’80.

K: There were some clear indicators that the organization was going down the wrong road.

D: Yeah. At the time I wrote it, a few of the children were fighting it out and that was when I wrote the letter and I named those children in the letter.

B: But there were other people of course who were very aware and becoming seriously concerned. There was a gradual, as I understand it - this is a question - there was a gradual rising of awareness and concern, but nobody actually did anything.

D: The leaders in the field really tried to do something. There was actually a meeting on Flag, which was the main headquarters and all of the heads of individual organizations – called franchises – all met together to complain about this Watchdog Committee and the way they were being controlled and the tech [processing techniques] was being compromised.

K: What do you mean, it was on ‘Flag’? Is there a place where it was held?

D: It was a place. It was the headquarters, and I believe that happened in Florida, didn’t it? Or was it on a ship?

D’s friend: Clearwater, Florida.

D: They had a land headquarters. It wasn’t on the ship headquarters where this happened. So they met, all these franchise holders and heads that were very powerful people that knew the techniques and helped others to have their own organizations where people could come in and go up this ladder of getting their memory and their recall and their freedom, basically – they were the ones out in the field that were delivering this to the public.

And they all met to complain and meet, wondering what was happening to this organization.

K: Did you go to that meeting?

D: I wasn’t at the meeting. The letter I wrote reported about that meeting because I heard what happened in the meeting and what happened to these stellar leaders had all been put down and stopped and put into situations where they were said to be criminals within the organization, kicked out in some cases or told that they had to do many things to make up for the terrible things they had done.

But these were the people who had built the organization. These were the leaders within the organization who had independently formed their own organizations which were feeders for the higher levels in the larger Church-run organizations. They were ravaged in this meeting that happened in 1981.

K: Were they innocent? Is that what you’re trying to say?

D: Yeah. They were innocent. They were leaders who had done the most for the organization.

B: They were highly able, highly respected, real heroes...

K: Okay, and so, once again...

D: The Watchdog Committee, I believe, that was somewhat mysterious. I think I talked about that in the letter. It was somewhat mysterious, who was who in it, but they had this power that was supposedly given by Ron but if it was signed by Ron I believe it was done through the children. It wasn’t just that Ron Hubbard knew everything that was going on.

If he did, his own mind was much compromised into some kind of state of paranoia. He himself knew he was being attacked for many years. Certainly since the ’70s he knew he had to hide, and he had to run. He knew he had to be on the seas.

His character of strength, of ability to take care of himself and teach others to be responsible and stand up to evil ... He was like that and he taught that and the people he spawned were like that, so he was out there on the high seas doing all of this stuff and they had psychic abilities to tell when there was going to be attacks, and what harbor to go in, what harbor not to go in, all these sorts of things. So ... something happened to him.

K: Somehow he got compromised.

D: He was compromised, absolutely.

K: So then what you’re saying is they had this meeting and what was the result of the meeting?

D: The result of the meeting was all these people that had power were stopped from functioning, stopped from running their organizations.

K: Were they fired? Were they asked to leave the organization?

D: They were fined huge amounts of money and told they’d committed crimes that they hadn’t committed. It was posted publicly. The people who were the most looked up to. People felt betrayed and confused. The leaders were publicly humiliated.

K: And just because some church fines you money, you don’t have to pay it, do you?

D: Some paid, some didn’t. But things just stopped working. The infrastructure of the Church was dysfunctional. Its own members were turning against the hierarchy. Confidential materials were left in the open.

K: Okay. So at that point, did you have people leaving the organization?

D: No. Nobody was leaving. There was loyalty - and disbelief it was all happening. Like the USA now! These people were trying to do something about mankind. So here’s the organization delivering these techniques and Ron Hubbard at the top and nobody knew what happened to Ron. Many who people knew him were shut out and couldn’t talk to him.

K: So you’re saying they stayed attached.

D: They were attached.

K: A sense of loyalty for what he had given them, or something like that?

D: There was massive confusion, upset and great betrayal, including of persons who’d worked with Ron directly. I wrote the letter within a month or two after this Mission Holders meeting on Flag.

There was outrage about the meeting at Flag, so people started having secret meetings about the big meeting; hushed conversations in halls talking to each other around the world. They’d gather in peoples’ homes and talk about what had happened, and these outrageous things that were happening to water down and misuse techniques; and not using the organizations system to deal with disagreements or discover who did what, not using it correctly, misusing it in kangaroo courts of judgment in which people were “declared evil” in the Scientology terminology, an ostracism.

But if you fought it, they would plant drugs on you or calls your friends, family, employers and harass you. This misuse of justice had been creeping in for some years, but at the Mission Holder meeting at Flag, the system completely collapsed.

They isolated the highest producers and most respected leaders in the organization and labeled them as having had criminal behavior. They had to pay penance either in hard work or labor for doing all these “evil” things.

The Church levied “taxes” on anyone who used Hubbard’s techniques. The They required 10% of your gross income if you even used the subject in business. It was the worst of control and suppression possible to the basic subject. The opposite of what should be done if one wanted the subject to be well known and well thought of.

So people were meeting around the world. They were meeting, and they were talking, and they were trying to understand: Where’s Ron? What happened to Ron? How can all this be happening? Trying to figure it out.

These meetings were extremely intense. People would cry their hearts out and scream in rage. Many of the people I heard weeping had been close personal friends of Ron. There was real love and great dedication and a sense of loyalty that was betrayed. How could Ron let this Happen? Where IS he? What HAPPENED to him?

It was heartbreaking. It was these emotions that drove me to write the letter. One of the great stated discoveries in Scientology was the “Third Party Law”. It stated that for two sides to continue to have a conflict, there HAS to be a HIDDEN THIRD PARTY who is invisible or not obvious, who is actually causing it all. That was the core subject of my letter.

K: Okay, so now let’s get back to you. So people were doing this. You weren’t at that initial meeting in Florida. At the same time you had, I assume, friends who were there. And so, then what happened? Did you participate in meetings like you’re describing?

D: Yeah. I started going to them and listening to what was going on, to these people that were heroes that had helped so many people; I listened to them talking about what had happened.

K: Okay, so what propelled you, then, to write the letter?

D: People would cry their hearts out and scream in rage and anguish. I witnessed some people uncontrollably weeping who were close personal friends of Ron.

We believed that the planet was on the brink of destruction and that we were going to save it. We believed we had the means to do so. We were a movement. We believed our history and our future was in the stars, just as Bob Dean says.

K: Okay.

D: And I was giving counseling someone who worked directly for Ron Hubbard’s children, so I was finding out about all sort of untoward things where they couldn’t see Ron Hubbard, they couldn’t reach him, their mother was controlled and couldn’t reach him, and that this Messenger Organization and the Watchdog Committee were all standing in between and they ruled what happened to Ron Hubbard and no communications could go back and forth.

Ron and his wife had decided to separate to make it harder on the authorities to locate him, but that may have been a manipulation by the Messenger Org too. Maybe the Messenger Org itself created false stories and utilized the resulting fear in LRH and his family to make it impossible in the future to ever meet again.

So something was wrong; the family couldn’t tell Ron about anything anymore. So I kept hearing about that. The kids - his kids - were very upset and hurt.

K: Okay, and so what made you sit down and write the letter?

D: The desire to save the subject and have the subject help mankind the way it had started out to.

K: Okay, but was there any, you know, if I was writing a movie, was there any inciting incident that actually said to you that you have special knowledge, special access, and that you could write a letter that might have an effect?

D: The final thing that caused me to write it was that severe and dangerous unrest broke out in the public sector. The mega size LA organization was stormed by a large crowd of upset Scientologists. They entered the huge downstairs dining room. There were more outside the building with megaphones, and they were surging in large numbers.

It was close to a full riot, really out of hand. The Church authorities couldn’t control it. It was like a violent revolution starting. Next, there was going to be broken windows and physical fighting and hospitalizations. It really looked to me as if it could start getting violent. I was there and witnessed it all.

People were citing injustices on the megaphone and screaming in protest and weeping on the megaphones about injustices and it was becoming mob mentality. The Church authorities had ultimate control because they could threaten excommunication. But the authority was wearing thin. If it weren’t for this real life situation, my letter would have had less impact.

B: Wow. I never heard about that.

D: Critical mass was reached. It felt as if there was going to be real violence. The authorities in the Church were clearly afraid, trying to calm the crowd down. The next day, at another organization where I was working, I heard about the riot from Ron’s children’s viewpoint too.

A couple of them - Arthur and Yvette - worked that other organization in LA. They were scared too. People were demanding that they get in touch with Ron and they could not. Diana, another older kid, was not in that office, but I’m sure she felt the pressure terribly. These kids are alive now, and they were all bought off.

K: Were they very young at that point?

D: Teenagers at the most, and one of his children was killed and left in the desert to die.

B: You mean Quentin.

D: Yeah.

K: Did he die?

D: Yeah. He was killed and left in the desert outside of Vegas.

K: And did that happen before you wrote the letter?

B: There’s a weird offline here: Kit Green provided me with his autopsy report.

K: I remember that.

D: Oh yeah? What was it?

B: Suspicious. I can show you the details.

D: I’d like to see it.

B: I’ve got it. I’ll e-mail it to you.

D: I felt terrible about Quentin. He was one of the dearest people there ever could be. He used to come to LA and let us watch him do sessions. He was a master at the techniques. Ron said he was the best in the world.

D’s friend: Can I add something here? Basically the main organization was taken over by these new people, children that were coming up. The missions or the outlying territories where people were actually learning the technology were doing a tremendous job.

The people who were running the main organization didn’t understand why all this activity was going on in the outside and they thought that the missions were ripping them off, taking all the money that should have been turned into the central organization and all that money was being fed out to all the mission people for their activities.

And so you have this area where there’s a fight going on, a battle is going on between the central and the outlying organizations... I mean, one of the senior officials used to carry a .45 and he had it on his desk and that was who you’d go talk to, and here’s the .45 looking right at you.

D: You’re talking about Russ?

D’s friend: No.

D: Well he had one too.

D’s friend: Anyway, one of the basic tenets of this whole technology was that any time you have a battle when you have fight of any kind between two people, look for a third party.

D: Right.

D’s friend: And the Third Party Law which is all written up in all the technology itself became very, very apparent, I believe, to Dane.

D: Yeah. It was very apparent that the battle was not between the central organization and these outlying ones. There was somebody causing that battle to happen, that caused the organization to fight itself.

And that’s how it was taken down, essentially. It fought itself. They did each other in. People did each other in. It’s like people that are married did each other in. People that loved each other, worked together, came up the ranks together, agreed on the same principles, were there altruistically, not there because they wanted to make a buck – they were there to save mankind, and they believed Ron Hubbard that the planet was gonna be taken down, and they could see it for themselves when they remembered their own history that it was a repeat performance on Earth coming right on down the pike again. They wanted to assist people to WAKE UP, recall who they were and are, and to save the planet.

D’s friend: Let me finish my thought, which was the Third Party Law. It’s that most of the people that were in this movement were very conscious of the Third Party Law.

And when the Dane Tops letter came out about what had happened at the Mission Holder Meeting in Florida, there was an edict that was put out by the central organization that if they didn’t like what you were doing, what they said was that you are excommunicated by the Church, period. That’s it, nothing you can do. And there were hundreds and hundreds of these edicts that were put out all at once in a matter of three, four weeks, or a month and a half.

K: By?

D’s friend: The central organization, which the children and the various alphabet agency people were in charge of. Dane’s letter went out... and there’s another factor involved here.

What happened was that the central organization formed up what was called the Finance Police and they would come into the outlying franchise operations, and I know specifically because a good friend of mine ran one of the organizations and they told him: You owe us $15,000, which is exactly what they had in their account. They took all the money out of the account. They just took it. They broke the Mission.

D: “Mission” is another name for a Scientology franchise.

D’s friend: We’re the Finance Police and therefore we’re totally in charge of all the money which is supposed to come back.

Now this happened worldwide. Now you can imagine what this central organization is saying: All your money is mine. Dane’s letter comes out. Everybody gets the letter, and says, Look at this: Who IS the third party?

D: That’s what I wrote in my letter.

D’s friend: And everybody is saying the Third Party is who? And this question that went out in Dane’s letter that ended up being sent to everybody. This is what started the whole full schism and exodus.

K: A spiraling.

D’s friend: A spiral. Right.

D: It was not just that part of us was wrong and others were right. The real destroyer of the Church was something hidden outside of all us, planting false information and making us fight ourselves and most of all, the founder, Ron Hubbard.

K: But before we get to exactly the letter, just a little bit more background in terms of here you are. This is occurring around you, you’re going to these meetings that you described, and there’s not just you, but there’s two other people that you’re kind of like in a small group with. Is that correct?

D: They weren’t part of these meetings. They wanted nothing to do with the whole thing. One of the people in the small group was already out of the organization and had already seen the writing on the wall - and the other one was afraid to get involved, or be seen as going against the Church. It was only myself who went to the meetings and public outcries and downright insurrection.

K: Okay, so you were alone there. Were those two people working with you? Because you said you were working with two other people. Were they involved in writing the letter?

D: No. They had nothing to do with it. It was totally individual, just myself. The work I was doing with them involved these enhanced psychic ability techniques that were originally derived from the three months of an ET contact.

One of the three of us had devised some techniques too, and we utilized it all. We were working with each other to bring the techniques to a higher level... Just the technology itself that Hubbard did, we enhanced it to make it go farther so that we would have more abilities and more stability once achieving them. And that was the only work I was doing with the two other people.

K: Okay, here in the setting at this point, I don’t know what year are we at?

D: All of this happened between ’80 and ’82.

K: So at this point, you decide to write a letter. Is it your ET contact that says you’ve got information or a download that says write this letter or helped you write it? Or was it some other stimulus that was direct that made you write the letter?

D: The public riot in LA was the last straw. It was truly frightening. I had strength from my experience of enhanced abilities. In retrospect and having learned all the information on Camelot, I can now see that I must have had an ET contact to cause the ability to go without food, water and sleep for three months and download the material about the creation of the human race - and much more.

To go beyond the “veil”, one might say. But the things that happened to give me the courage to create Dane Tops and writing the letter, was not an ET contact as such. Dane Tops was born out of a passionate desire to save the Church of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard from destruction.

K: Just a sober analysis from the point of view of a person, yourself, who had some inside access and knowledge and then with what was going on around you who were, basically, it was falling apart – as it was – as you described it.

D: Falling apart, but nobody was leaving.

K: Okay. Even though they were being sent letters to be excommunicated, they wouldn’t leave.

D: They wouldn’t leave.

K: Okay. So at that point, with that setting, you write your letter. Okay, now you had to be hidden at that moment.

D: I was always hidden as Dane Tops.

K: In other words, you have a persona that they know you as. When you walk in, they would say hello?

D: Yeah. They would know me just as I am now, but I became someone else and I wore different clothes when I was Dane Tops. I wasn’t recognizable at all. I used a different license plate on my car. I had a complete disguise.

K: To do what?

D: To be Dane Tops. Because what I did was I got a mailbox that was... actually I had to find a mailbox where I couldn’t be followed or known, that wouldn’t be a normal suspected mailbox, so I took out a mailbox in the name of Dane Tops and the mailbox was actually in a business of mailboxes that were utilized for pornography mail between people. There was some security around it to protect it from the law.

K: So you thought of this ahead of time.

B: This is very important part of the story.

K: [to Bill] I know it’s important, so just let me set the scene so I can understand the story a little bit more.

[To Dane] I want to understand because I know you might know a little bit more, but I know nothing, so I’m just talking to you as someone who knows nothing about what you did and how you did it.

You wanted to write this letter. Did you decide to write the letter and then figure out how to put it out there? Or did you first figure out how to disguise yourself, knowing what this organization would do to you if you wrote such a letter? Do you see what I’m asking?

D: I wrote the letter out of my own passion, and I hadn’t figured out all of this, because I had no idea of the impact the letter would have when I wrote it.

I wrote the letter and sent it to a Los Angeles mailing list of certain key people, maybe 20 or 30 people originally, that’s all

That’s the only time I ever mailed it. But I wanted a return address to see if anyone responded, and that needed to be totally hidden so they wouldn’t find out who I was.

K: They didn’t have e-mail then, so how did you send it?

D: By regular mail, snail mail.

K: And was it traceable?

D: Yeah, because I had the return address which was this phony Post Office box that was a real one under the name of Dane Tops, and Dane Tops is who signed the letter.

When I went to get mail from that Post Office box, I wore a disguise and I had a false license plate. Because I knew the organization would be surveiling it.

K: So you had a disguise, Okay. You sent out the letter before you decided to protect yourself?

D: I think before I sent it out, I got the PO Box so I was protected when I sent it. But when I wrote it, I didn’t know what I was going to do. I just wrote it out of my own passion and desire.

But then when I decided to send it out and got some significant snail-mail addresses of major people in the organization in LA, I decided I can’t be known or allow myself to be discovered.

I signed Dane Tops out of nowhere and I did this thing with a pornographic snail-mail address. I had to figure out how to disguise myself. I got an idea that was wild for me, to go somewhere I had never been.

I got my disguise because I went to a gay porno man’s movie and I looked at the way they were dressed in trenchcoats when they went because they would go in these movies and masturbate in the movies and make connections in the movies.

So I went to several of these movies in a trench coat outfit and copied their manners and then I found out where one of these porno addresses was by asking from one of the guys in the movie who thought I was a gay too. I had to really take care of myself there.

K: Did you get advice from somebody, or did you think of this all on your own?

D: It was all on my own. I wrote the letter. Then I had the thought: How am I gonna do this? I thought: Well, I’ll try this; I’ll just dress up like one of those guys who go to these movies in Hollywood. Those movies were around and you would see the men outside and they were slinky and in disguise. I started going to the movies. I found out from one of them where I could get a secret address because they had secret addresses. Gay life was different then.

K: That’s great.

D: [laughs]

B: Now, at that time, nobody else, not one person at that time, knew that you were doing this.

D: No.

B: This was absolutely solo, a total personal secret. Nobody knew.

D: Right.

K: Did you have romantic partner at that time? And she didn’t know?

D: No, she didn’t know. She was very much in the organization, but she wouldn’t have agreed with anything that I was doing, so I had to keep quiet with her. And I kept bringing this weird outfit home in a suitcase, so it was very weird.

K: So you sent the letter out without her knowing about it?

D’s friend: I was there too. You told me about it and I got very alarmed since I was really...

D: You were high up, higher up than I was.

D’s friend: I got very alarmed and said: Well, this is all really incredible. [Dane laughs] What are you going to do to protect yourself? And then he came up with whatever he did to create the image, because I thought if this gets out, then we’re all dead, anyone who knows you.

D: Dead meat, yeah.

K: But you knew ahead of time that if this letter... at that time you knew, because now I would say everyone would know.

D: At that time I knew, yes, Kerry.

K: You knew they’d kill you over the letter.

D: I didn’t know if they’d kill me. Work me over, maybe, but I knew that we would be excommunicated and any kind of reputation my wife and I had would be ruined, all our mail would be gone through from there on out, we’d be harassed where we lived and worked and our neighbors would be harassed.

They wouldn’t necessarily kill me, but they did a lot of bad things, like they’d plant drugs on you and get you thrown in jail. They’d do things like that to ruin your life if you were messing with them. Many lives were ruined.

B: And you said, I think before we started recording this, that they threw a lot of resources at finding out who this person was.

D: Well yeah, because when I sent it out just to Los Angeles people. I didn’t know what was going to happen. I was amazed! When it mushroomed and exploded, they went after me.

D’s friend: I was looking at a clip on Miscavige and it turns out that he’s 47 or 49 now. I thought that was amazing. Time really flies.

D: That means he was a late teen when he took over the Church. But he had started in the Church when he was a little, little child.

D’s friend: He started when he was four or five.

B: Four or five, that’s unbelievable.

D’s friend: There was some attention to some education either home schooling or...

D: Well, he could read and write.

D’s friend: But there was some Church education.

D: Yeah. The hard-ass stuff.

D’s friend: But mostly it was crazy.

D: It was all discipline. It was like military discipline for little children.

D’s friend: Yeah. Bad news for kids.

D: Unless you got to be in power, then you were privileged. [laughs]

D’s friend: Yeah, really. They had their hierarchy in there also.

D: Everything had a hierarchy. That’s what it was all built on, right?

D’s friend: Right, who’s the top dog.

D: Right.

D’s friend: I’ve read some of the articles on Miscavige’s escapades, and some of the people went into great detail because The Times in Clearwater... I think three guys left and went public, published their stories in The Times in Clearwater about Miscavige’s escapades.

D: What were they?

D’s friend: He ended up using raw force to control people. I mean, slap them in the face, punch them, jump up and down, hit them in the side of the head, and smash them in the ears.

D: Heavy, heavy, heavy. Yes, bad stories about that guy.

D’s friend: And because it takes raw force... Miscavige is the one that got the IRS to classify Scientology as a Church, as a religion, which is an interesting thing in itself. He got the legal status as a religion.

D: So he let all those IRS agents in? Miscavige did it?

D’s friend: Miscavige went through, got a tremendous amount of legal background on all the IRS people.

D: Well, the Church had been doing the research on the IRS and collecting files on it for years: so Miscavige wanted to make peace with them?

D’s friend: No, he wanted a deal up front and he laid it out one way or the other. They had the goods on the government and IRS. The edict from David Miscavige was: If you will give us what we want, we will not prosecute you personally, officially. And he did it up front. I mean he went there in his usual manner, used a lot of force.

D: So this was what, age 18 or something?

D’s friend: Yeah. This was the time when the Church flipped over and became a legal entity with government protection and they no longer attacked the government after that.

D: I see - legal, doesn’t have to pay taxes, a religion.

D’s friend: And the whole transaction never went public.

D: Right. Nothing went public. Nobody knows about it.

D’s friend: Well, they know it happened but nobody can find a date. It was a corporate structure, and it’s all private. So the whole area was turned into... the energy was physical, raw energy that’s being used. Even his niece turned against him.

D: David Miscavige?

D’s friend: Yeah, went public on it.

D: And said what?

D’s friend: That he was a bad person and he was...

D: Beating up people and stuff?

D’s friend: Beating up people, using undue force, no real communication, etcetera. But he really got crazy when he started beating up the Executive Committee.

D: He actually was physically beating up the Executive Committee?

D’s friend: Yeah.

D: Good God. He’s really, wow, heavy duty. Does he beat the shit out of them or does he just slap them around?

D’s friend: Some of them he slapped around, some of them he kicked. He hits them hard.

D: Like one hard hit, like he can deliver a great punch?

D’s friend: Yeah, but sometimes he would do it in a very inopportune degree or...

D: Do it in front of people to humiliate them. Right?

D’s friend: Yeah. Absolutely. There’s one boss and that’s him. There’s One.

D: Didn’t you say he did that to Tom Cruise?

D’s friend: No.

D: It was some big star who he slapped around. Oh I know, it was when he was married to... who was that Australian lady Tom Cruise was married to?

B: Nicole Kidman.

D: Nicole Kidman. Weren’t you the one that told me what happened with that?

D’s friend: No, not me.

D: Somebody told me what happened with Miscavige and Tom Cruise.

D’s friend: Oh, he came on to her and said that she was a bitch.

D: Miscavige told that to Tom Cruise?

D’s friend: No, told it to Nicole Kidman, that she was a bad influence.

D: Miscavige told that to Nicole Kidman?

D’s friend: And he told Cruise that she was a bad influence on him.

D: And that’s why they got divorced?

D’s friend: I don’t know if that’s the case.

D: But, I mean, if he says it, then Tom Cruise has to pay attention to it then.

K: Nicole Kidman was also a Scientologist?

D’s friend: Not any more, I bet.

D: But this guy, David Miscavige, this Messenger who got control of the Church, bad-mouthed her to Tom Cruise really heavy duty.

K: So, he was involved.

D’s friend: Well, everybody took Miscavige seriously, because he beat people up and he was good at it. [laughs]

K: He physically beat people up.

D: Yeah, that’s right, in humiliating ways, in front of others.

K: I know, but if somebody does that, you’d expect them to lose followers, normally.

D’s friend: Well, he was in a position of being THE senior in the Church, and he could kick somebody out at will, as IF he were Ron. That’s the power the Messengers had gotten. People did not want to be kicked out.

D: See, where the whole control goes in on the populace of the Church is that the idea that they are holding the next level that’s going to give you this kind of freedom of retrieving all these super abilities... to save your immortal soul! Ever hear of that?

K: Holding onto knowledge.

D: That’s right, and the fact is, the Church stops at a certain level, and after Hubbard died – actually before – they didn’t have more levels to offer to keep advancing people, so that’s when the real scam started.

But if they restored the full use of the techniques, people wouldn’t put up with the police control. They become individually powerful, and will not become a slave.

K: The levels stopped after he died.

D: The true delivery was compromised before he died. The scam is that you are going to become completely enlightened; your enlightenment process will continue and finish to the point of full godhood provided you get the next level and pay for it – and it’s always the next level.

They’re constantly digging around in old material and trying to come up with something new, but it isn’t. And in fact the real techniques that will get you the most stability in higher powers aren’t being used at all and were mostly abandoned, as they take too long to deliver and people can do it with each other for no money.

B: I’ve got a little question that fits in with this, and that is that I was very interested to know whether the idea of writing a letter was something that sort of slowly crept up on you - or whether it came to you in a kind of blinding flash of inspiration.

D: It was pretty much as I described a few minutes ago. My impetus started after one terribly wrenching meeting where people were in great emotional pain about having no answers. This was during the secret clandestine meetings after the infamous Mission Holders Meeting. Then the LA riot. The letter came out of need to do something about it all, just a total desperation and upset about what was happening to our ability to help people worldwide.

K: Had you ever written another letter that made you want to write this one?

D: Not in the organization, no. I’d written to Ron Hubbard before, and received answers from him, but they weren’t to save the organization. They were just things within it to assist it to deliver well.

K: And was that common that people would write him?

D: Yes. People wrote him all the time, but they didn’t get direct answers a lot. For some reason, he wrote back to me and I was always proud of that.

I had high stats or production and he took notice of the methods I was using and validated that, and even wrote a administrative directive about the technique I was using and it went out worldwide. I was very proud of that. [laughs]

B: But at this point, I still want to interject for the benefit of anyone who is reading this transcript, and hasn’t seen the letter that will accompany this transcript... a “letter” makes it sound like a little letter of a couple of pages that you write on a piece of notepaper and put in an envelope.

This is a ten thousand word major presentation, and as somebody who writes myself and sometimes I think, well I’m going to write a few paragraphs here, and it ends up being huge. What was your experience when you wrote it? Did you, just like you turned on the tap and then it just flowed? Did it come out in one go or did you have to work on it for a week?

D: One go.

B: One go. Because what many people seem to have experienced in reading that letter is that it wasn’t only a presentation of clarifying, de-confusing, information, but it was actually inspiring in itself. It contained something between the lines, between the words.

This was what I felt when I read it, and this wasn’t even there at the time. This was many years later, and I thought, my God, you know. This is before I met you.

That letter had an energy and spirit of its own like a rolling snowball, just rolling, rolling, rolling, that people seemed to have been inspired, that they felt drawn to copy it and send it to somebody else, and then they copied it, and there are copies of copies of copies.

You couldn’t stop this thing because the spirit with which you imbued it seemed to be picked up by the people who received the letters. Would you say that’s accurate?

D: Oh yeah. After that, my life became trying to deal with all the mail. Just about the only places I didn’t get mail from in the world was the Far East and the Iron Curtain, you know, the communist countries. But I actually did get some mail from Russia. Every western country I got a lot of mail from.

K: So, you had a disguise, you had a post box, you mailed the letter. In a sense, were you continuing your normal life not disguised, and then you’d go in and pick up your mail, in your disguise, I assume?

D: Yeah.

K: But no one ever found out, or traced you, or followed you.

D: No, but they tried.

K: Did they have suspicion?

D: No. They tried, they really tried. I was never questioned. They wouldn’t have known it was me when they cased the PO Box.

Seedy types frequented that mailbox center through the doors, which you had to get through first with ID. I’d thoroughly made sure with the owner that he would never reveal whose mail I was picking up, if someone came in afterwards and tried to bribe him to tell, which they DID - he said.

Of course, he thought I was hiding due to illegal pornography issues and that would have affected his illegal business to reveal my identity. I was dressed as a seedy, gay man. So that meant the owner of the business was not bribable, and that’s what I’d thought out beforehand, and why I had chosen such a bizarre setting.

He had hundreds of mailboxes. The Church wouldn’t have any way of knowing when people went in the building who was going to pick up Dane Tops’ mail. I knew that it was a safe bet beforehand because I was going to put a return address. I knew they were going to watch the place and look for Dane Tops, even if it only reached the original 20 or 30 people I sent it out to.

I didn’t how hard they tried to find me and how much money they spent to do it until later when I started hearing inside info about the search for Dane Tops.

K: How much later was that?

D: Well, I was still in the main organization and could go in and out as I pleased, and discuss the terrible letter with others, and see what they were going to do about this instigator! [laughs]

I still kept going to these clandestine illegal meetings too, and [laughs] I was getting all this mail coming in from around the world, and at these meetings, they started acknowledging Dane Tops and applauding. I was flabbergasted the first time I had to stand up and toast and applaud myself along with the others.

Some of the people in the meetings had written to me in private. There’d be a meeting of 50 of these people that felt more power now because of the letter and they were all talking about the letter for many months, you know, and they’d start praising Dane Tops, and I would stand right there toasting myself along with them - because it would have been weird if I didn’t.

They’d toast about all the copies of it that were going all around the world and there would be stacks of printed letters for people to take and send out to others. I was astonished. I was just there as my real self, listening to all this.

K: So, how many pages was the letter?

B: It runs to about ten thousand words. If you print that out, that’s what? I mean, it’s a big piece.

K: I don’t understand numbers like that. How many pages?

B: I would say about 20 or 30 pages. Is that about right? It was quite a lot, you know.

D: It didn’t seem long to me.

K: I know that this is a detail, but was it typed?

D: I did it with a typewriter. And then I got rid of the typewriter, because I didn’t want it to be traced.

B: And then you signed it at the bottom, and there was this fascinating little subplot that people were trying to decipher this extraordinary little signature.

D’s friend: It’s still on the net. It’s still going on. There are still arguments about it still going on: Who did it? Who was it?

B: So, a trivial question: Where did that name come from? What a strange name. It’s very memorable. But where did that come from?

D: I don’t know. It just came out of me, and I signed it.

B: Great.

K: So you mailed it out, you sent it out, and at that point, how many days before you started getting any reaction whatsoever back to you?

D: One.

K: One? How?

D: I didn’t go to the PO Box for a week, but letters had been coming in all week from the day after it was sent. Someone hand carried an answer to the mailbox to get it there immediately, and then I just received more and more and more mail from all over LA and the US, and then the world.

K: And when people wrote to you, what were they saying?

D: Thank God somebody’s written this. You’re right, I’m free...

K: Now, you didn’t write back to those people, did you?

D: I wrote back to a lot of people.

K: As Dane Tops?

D: Mm hm. I wrote back to hundreds of people. There were thousands of letters.

K: And with the return address at the same PO Box?

D: Yes, I kept up the disguise and the license plate and the whole persona. There were some people I had quite a bit of correspondence with.

B: But you said you got thousands of replies.

D: Oh, many thousands. For at least a year or two. I don’t know how many.

B: It’s very interesting for us in the age of e-mails to actually... I mean, thousands of physical letters is quite something. And also of course there’s a time delay before these things get physically photocopied and then sent out in the mail across the world.

And I remember, for instance, reading the report, I think it was from one of the European countries, that the Dane Tops letter reached them the next year, like a steamship, you know. Really very funny, this thing was kind of gradually moving around the world. And in today’s terminology, it went viral.

D: I never sent it to anybody but the original LA list. I never sent it to anybody but that, so the rest of it was from those original people sending it.

K: And did Hubbard ever read it?

D: By that time you couldn’t get to him, but I had hope that it would. I was trying to get to him because my small group had devised techniques that we believed we could undo what was happening to Hubbard, what was the matter, why his technology got stopped at a certain place.

We believed we could repair what had happened to him, what was stopping him. But we couldn’t get to him because he was already completely quarantined. He was out in the desert. So, the children would never give him that letter, even if an adult gave it to them to deliver it.

K: But if you go out of body, you can communicate with him. Didn’t people think that they could do that? Weren’t they getting reports back, and so on?

D: By the ’80s, these skills were deteriorating. And were never developed to full mutual telepathy as they needed to be. It would have certainly helped us more now with the ET problems.

K: But the heads that were – by that word meaning you said there were heads, you know, the heads that ran the organization, which were then basically taken down on some level. Okay?

D: Right.

K: But those people are still individuals and they’re still going to try, aren’t they, to communicate with him? Go out of body?

D: I think a lot of tried, and we knew the main person – a fellow named David Mayo who was the last known consultant of Ron Hubbard at the time, the last one who was working on technology with Ron.

They developed the last major techniques together that Ron worked on. David was brought in because Ron was sick as a dog and had cancer on his face. The last piece of tech developed was an effort to save Ron’s life, and David was as much a part of developing it as Ron or even more.

It was called New Era Dianetics for OTs, its technical name. Or NOTS for short. We found out directly from David Mayo about the condition Ron Hubbard was in - which was so very poor at that time, with a growth on his face.

Ron was already a sick prisoner in his own situation, with child vultures waiting for him to die so they could take over. Top executives were made prisoners too, like a hard labor camp, and they couldn’t get out. Again the best of the best made into slaves.

Sort of like the Chinese Cultural Revolution, where you murder the greatest in your county. Take down the artists, the inventors, and the most educated. People in the Church were subdued and horrified and couldn’t believe it was all happening. Totally betrayed.

For years the government disinfo campaign continued until now. Hubbard is thoroughly maligned in public and made to look like a charlatan and a lying thief and criminal who was out to make money in a giant scam. And of course that IS what the Church had become. Pretty ironic.

So there were people that tried to contact him, but his abilities were impaired and so were those of others, total intimidation and fear of being kicked out.

K: Okay, so just to tie this up: you wrote the letter, you sent it out, and you got the reaction. The organization had already started crumbling, and then could you talk about what you think the reaction to the letter, how that sort of exacerbated any crumbling of the organization.

D: Well it totally did, and from then on out that letter was used by each sector that left. It was very much like Martin Luther and the Catholic Church.

It was like that. It was a huge organization, and it was worldwide. It was even in the communist countries, and it was hard for Scientology to get into the communist countries, just like it is for Christians. It was not an appropriate philosophy for communists. But it was like a worldwide schism with people leaving in droves.

K: So people kind of used that as a manifesto, in a sense?

D: Yeah. Exactly. They used it as their manifesto, and they left the organization with the concept that they were going to carry on the techniques, the part of truth that they had of it. And they tried, but it mostly did not carry on.

People were affected by all the evilness attributed to Hubbard in a giant campaign financed by black ops. They actually paid some Scientologists to write disinfo, and paid others to shut up.

But my highest wish was not that everyone leave, but that they would en masse demand justice and in numbers break down the walls that protected those who were abusing power and let us GET to Ron directly. That step was missed.

So the letter was used not to create a revolution of redress out of justified rage, but an exodus. People were already too beaten, too hopeless, sort of like the USA is today. They did NOT get the point of the letter and look for the Third Party at all. The people blamed Ron Hubbard and personally felt betrayed by him. That’s exactly what the government wanted. The power in the organization was lost when so many left.

The government had to continue to malign and discredit the founder SO THAT the techniques were not carried on in their purest forms. Everyone was manipulated to feel completely betrayed by Hubbard for the government operation to be successful.

We were chicken, and were helpless to organize, confront, and tear down city hall. I and others looked within the organization for the Third Party. We never hunted down and found the Third Party. The third party was the black ops government of the USA. They took it down and now they own it. It’s run by ego and power now.

In public, Ron was more and more made to look as if all he was doing was stealing money, and that he was a total quack. His discoveries were maligned and within a few years, even the people who were proponents felt so personally betrayed by Ron and blamed him so badly that they no longer practiced the techniques with as much care.

Slanderous books were written about Hubbard. The government bought off the whistleblowers within the organization who were trying to openly expose nefarious activities.

Individual loners came out and tried to get to the bottom of the corruption and expose it, but they never found the Third Party. The Church paid them big sums to shut up and never speak in public.

A few people I know actually went berserk, some of the highest most experienced people just lost their minds over it all and bought the bag about Ron, felt utterly disillusioned about the human race even.

We were in it to save the fate of the planet, the very fate Ron predicted that we’re facing right now, and so the people felt that Ron had betrayed the planet and all mankind and that it was all a sham that we were taken and a part of it.

The government did a massive campaign against him and it all worked. The full original techniques are no longer really employed, except in comparatively small so-called splinter groups, not the way it was in the 50s when it was a giant wave, a giant movement.

It’s not an organization that can deal with what happening on the planet... you end up with all these hyperdimensional entities – and ETs, the organization can’t do it. We didn’t evolve large numbers of highly capable people who have real power to go up against the things we’re facing now.

Of course, there are a few, very capable people indeed, mostly operating very quietly and effectively and without any fuss, and they are getting things done. But in numbers, we even now could really still count, even without super abilities individually.

We still could win with certain basic truths and skill-sets. There are some organizations that are excellent. But not enough of them yet.

B: I’ve never actually seen anyone levitate, but I’d say that’s a magic trick, and maybe it doesn’t really matter.

D: It’s not a “magic trick” - and it does matter! These kinds of things matter, to be able to do those things, to read minds. The ETs have abilities like that as a matter of course, and we can also.

B: Well actually, the most powerful people I know can be invisible about all of this and they’re changing conditions because they’re operating at a nonphysical level. But, you know...

D: I know.

B: Okay. There are techniques that are certainly a form of abuse, but I think this isn’t a failed experiment, and I want to let you know this personally.

D: I’m very aware of what you’re talking about. I mean, my friend here, he knows Captain Bill Robertson, he’s trained in Bill’s techniques, and he knows the people who deliver it. So I’m familiar.

But when I say it’s failed I mean that there was an inspired worldwide movement, and that was destroyed.

The real thing that was lost is the progressive ability to face larger and larger forces and manifestations of energies, and how to actually get a spiritual energy-entity to – independent of their body and everything else – to manifest a larger and larger power, so much so that they are themselves are the equivalent and equal of these hyper-dimensional entities, but positive ones. We could do more good with large numbers of us.

The ability ... the techniques of manifesting in such massive ways are not utilized and sought after and the techniques that my small group discovered are not utilized and are not out there. Just like all the techniques of your organization are not utilized in large enough venues, more people, in other words, a sense of an Earth-Mission like we once had.

When the Dane Tops letter came out, I had correspondence with people where I hinted at some of the things my small group was doing and we were offered full support. We were offered a castle in Scotland by a guy named Robin Scott; he later felt betrayed, like so many others.

But at that time, after the letter got to Europe, he offered full support to my small group to carry on with the work that we were doing because I said a few things in some of these private letters that interested and excited him.

Well, today, all those people would be highly biased over any claims. The sense of betrayal after so much trust of Ron ruined people. Bill Robertson was not betrayed openly. But on some level he had to have been very upset. He and Ron were close friends.

Who knows, if his techniques were proving effective, the government would want to take Bill Robertson down too.

So I’m just saying it’s not that there aren’t great techniques still in use and there’s some splinter groups, like Captain Bill – who founded one of the best splinter groups, I believe. If I’d known him, I believe he would have incorporated what our little group was doing, or we would have incorporated him.

But the real wealth of the subject is no longer flowing out, exploding into the world. The death toll that’s about to be extracted from our planet is imminent and we as a planet are appallingly ignorant.

It would not have been so if the mission that Ron Hubbard was doing succeeded. We were a brave and emotionally powerful bunch. We were a passionate purpose on fire.

B: It hasn’t happened yet. I know people who are working on this right as we’re talking. I mean, the game’s not over.

D: No, it’s not.

B: It happens at every level.

D: That’s true.

B: And there are all kinds of people who are working on this stuff, using every kind of technique you can name. I don’t care if someone stands on their head in the corner and meditates and is sure they’re helping. Maybe they are. I don’t know. That’s cool with me.

K: We don’t think we need to go under those headings. I think their work is still being done.

D: It’s not only still being done, but there are many, many techniques that have come up and are being employed. What is still being employed in the subject of Scientology is a piece of the whole of mankind discovering who and what it is.

K: It’s not a cohesive organization, is what you’re saying. The cohesiveness of the organization doesn’t exist. The techniques exist, and they’re being practiced in all different ways and forms and fashions.

D: There are so many isms and things that came out of Scientology. Regression. Rebirthing came out of it, Primal Scream, Werner Erhard’s est came out of it, Landmark came out of it, NXIVM came out of it and NXIVM is just fabulous, improving on some things in Scientology in several important ways.

I’ve done them all and seen what people did with Hubbard’s stuff. It goes on and on, all the stuff that came out of the original discoveries that Ron Hubbard started. It’s legion. His work is everywhere. Few people know that so much of it came from him.

You know, what I know now is that there are so many levels of what’s true and you can go up in any column of that truth and once you reach a height in any one column you feel: I have the truth.

And usually you’re so high up that you think you’ve got it all because the truth you see would solve it all you can just see how it will. But then, there’s someone else that has a different perspective and they have a great truth too, but within a different column of the whole.

That’s where we have trouble when we go up the truth ladder ourselves really high into understanding so profound it seems you have all the answers for the world.

Then, on this very high level, there may be a different perspective and it’s an equal level of truth. People who reach the top of a column of a particular truth are sure IT is the one - and that’s a trap. I see so many of these high levels of truth having sprung up in the world trying to get through for the masses to utilize, like whatever ETs tried to get through to me, I was given directions on one column of truth.

And part of the knowledge within that column included THAT there are similar equal truths that have tried to get through to many other people in different ways. We reach truth and we want to share it, all trying to give to each other what we see.

Different techniques or different methods. It may just be meditation. But you don’t really know there are always truths equally true to the one you see. It’s a trap to not know that. The whole is all of them, even opposing ones.

Understanding a full dichotomy is a basic in understanding the structure of life. But equal truths are not necessarily opposing, they’re also just variations on a theme or different themes, equally valid in the entire fabric of life.

K: Well, I did the same thing.

D: Absolutely.

K: On my own, and it wasn’t like that at all.

D: It doesn’t have to be anyone else’s way. And it actually isn’t the same way I went. Scientology was just something different, a different method of getting there, and it doesn’t necessarily offer the same abilities as other things. At its best, it is not a “way”, but a technique to release an individual’s unique path, each one different from every other one.

K: There are many roads.

D: Many roads. Many, many roads.

K: And I think we could leave it at that rather than get this into any kind of divisive...

D: That’s the biggest sickness, is I have the way.

K: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, thank you so very much for telling us your story. We need to talk about how we might put this story out.

B: But just a moment, though - because I know that you gave this a very great deal of thought before you came on here. Are there more places you want to go with this story? Because we might not know what those places are that you have in mind. Have you finished? Maybe you haven’t!

D: I believe Ron Hubbard had the most dangerous information of anybody in this century, and for a time was a major target and enemy of the Illuminati. More resources were put into taking him down and his knowledge out of the public domain and using it for their destructive purposes than any other fight that they had at that time – I believe he was their worst fight of the day, as far as a human threat.

They wanted his knowledge and they wanted to take him out. They won in the 80s, after a 25 year fight.

People do not know what they are, and just telling them doesn’t work. How to manifest yourself in knowing the immortal being you are with your memory intact is what Hubbard tried to impart. It was a real attempt.

B: I understand. I remember something that... You may know the quote and reference better than me, but I remember that Hubbard talked about what I believe he referred to as the Shades of Night.

And the Shades of Night were falling, and that as we became more technologically capable, that technology could be used to free man or to enslave him. And there was an opportunity, a window of opportunity, as the Shades of Night were falling, to use this technology to free man before the forces of darkness got there first.

D: Right.

B: Now, this is entirely is my paraphrase. Can you say something to that?

D: He knew the technical and philosophical elements being introduced on Earth from his own memory, and the verified similar memories of others. He labeled these technologies with his own labels. He knew about the forces to use technology for evil, and he knew that they were gaining more and more power, and he was trying to wake people up in time. He talked about it in these types of metaphorical terms.

K: And these are all the same kinds of things that we’re talking about in Camelot.

D: Absolutely. It’s what Camelot is talking about, only he was in the 1950s and 60s.

K: Right. And this is part of the reason why you were so attracted to Camelot, and a long time ago you got very involved with us. But in essence, he was talking about the ETs behind The Powers-That-Be.

D: Right. Our real history. He was talking about the techniques of mind control, and how it was done. And he was talking about the basics of how the mind works, that the mind can be healed, and that you are able to gain your healed mind back: how to do it, and the programs for recovery were the courses and procedures in Scientology. The super-soldiers could make some use of it for their own restoration.

B: And the thing that I’d like to say on record on this transcript - and I’d like to ask for you too - is that, for instance, we have just come from the Los Angeles Awake and Aware conference where we heard testimony from Duncan O’Finioan and David Corso on record and quite a number of people were part of that program, the MK ULTRA program, off record, who have been extensively – in the psychology terminology – implanted, not physically but psychically.

D: It’s physically too. That stuff under Duncan’s fingernails with electricity... The Bourne Identity scenario. That’s classic implant stuff.

B: Right. But it’s the psychic implants that you can’t extract with a pair of pliers. That’s the stuff that you need extra, very refined techniques, to get to the bottom of.

D: Right. But you have to undo the electrical charge to do it. The implant is simultaneous. Pain plus unconsciousness plus command. That’s the formula. It’s all in the basic book from 1950.

B: I understand that. We heard Duncan O’Finioan talking on stage... We heard him say in response to a question, that when a therapist tried to work with him, one of his alternate personalities that his colleagues had nicknamed The Berserker actually became triggered and he tried to kill the therapist. And that was the end of that.

You told me off record, and I’d like for you to say this again, that Scientology techniques, properly applied, could actually handle that entire situation without any danger or risk and with a guarantee of a good outcome. And I wonder if you could state this, because a lot of those people will hear this. It’s a very, very important statement to make.

D: The techniques, I believe, came from the research that Hubbard did. But then you have to find an expert practitioner or develop it for each other in tandem. The advanced techniques are the most basic techniques - certainly not in the Church anymore, so one has to know where to go to get that kind of assistance, and yes, how to do it is in the original research that came out of L. Ron Hubbard.

There are techniques that are known that can fully reverse the situation of a super-soldier, and it does require commitment, and time to do it, and it can be done, and they haven’t been known before Ron Hubbard.

And I believe the techniques done to make a super-soldier, they can be reversed. You know of Cathy O’Brien? The first person to help her when she escaped was a Scientologist who took her in, a friend of mine.

Cathy had her memory restored by a number of techniques, and not only by him. That’s remarkable. There are no others of her ilk with restored memory like she has. She was implanted severely. From childhood - babyhood, actually.

The super-soldiers should get together with the White House models and examine their mind control programs. Would be a great joint project! Invite Cathy O’Brien to the super-soldier convention.

K: We might see whether you’re in danger from releasing this interview.

D: It was the organization that used their money and resources to find me. The only danger is still the truth about who and what we humans are, the fact that our history can be known, and that we can become cognizant of what our history really is in this universe and what’s happening on this planet, and the fact that it’s a prison planet, but we are infinitely powerful and IF the secrets were revealed we could beat it.

These are the secrets that I’m verifying, that’s already come out in Camelot. Its important to understand how brainwashing is really working and being utilized.

K: There are other people that we can talk to to get more information about that. There are some people we want to talk to about that.

D: Great.

K: But thank you. I think that’s very good.

B: Was there anything else that you wanted to add in there that you haven’t said, even something that can be inserted? Was there anything that you came with on your notes that you didn’t get a chance to say?

D: I think that if anybody becomes interested in the subject now because of this, should do whatever they can to find original works of Ron Hubbard, not the altered versions that are now sold and used and to find people that know those techniques from the ’50s. That’s where the most valuable stuff is. Don’t buy rewrites of their original books, which they have done.

B: Okay. For the benefit of the technical people, what specific techniques would be on your list?

D: Okay, it’s a sequence. Read Dianetics, the Modern Science of Mental Health. That was the first book. Scientologists call it Book One.

Two people can team up and apply the techniques in there on each other. You also want to go through this lifetime’s physical trauma in such a way that the ridges of stuck energy in the body release.

And the main thing that has been taken away from the Church is letting that kind of energy really manifest. Everything in the Church become mental, but “intellectual” doesn’t cut the mustard of deep energy release.

“Understanding” doesn’t move mountains of negative energies. Leverage does, and physical reversal, and that means applied skills. The super-soldiers could read and utilize that book, if they’re therapy-minded.

B: I was only asking that question because you were talking about 1950s processes, and I just wondered if you had some specific processes in mind.

D: The book is the start. You can go a long way with it.

B: Okay.

D: But the basics of what’s ultimately possible, I’d say one of the best things to listen to are The Philadelphia Doctorate Course tapes.

B: Right.

D: Have you ever heard them?

B: I’ve listened to them all the way through.

D: It’s all Ron Hubbard’s stuff.

B: Yeah. Where my question is really going here, I mean this isn’t necessarily going to be in the transcript, but, for instance, for any of Ron’s Org [the splinter group that Bill Robertson founded] trained auditors and associates listening to this, what is it that you’re pointing out that you don’t think they’re doing that they should be doing for training or practice or drill that they’re not doing? Or maybe you don’t have an answer offhand, but it might be interesting if you could specify that.

D: There are things about entities that I haven’t seen fully addressed. I believe there’s a blueprint for human beings that was installed in us that whatever life form you’re in, whether you’re a human being or a different kind of life form, it has a certain structure

And that structure is installed, and that structure means that if you go have a life as one of these kind of life forms then there are secrets of that life form, there is a spiritual structure of each life form, not ONLY the physical DNA structure, and you can go much further as a spiritual being when you become intimate with these spiritual installed structures of each life form.

This is the key to understanding ETs. We are ETs to someone else too, you know, but you’re still attached to that life form you’re using at the time, because you don’t really understand the structure – you can’t really get free from it.

And this is a part of the research I haven’t seen done anywhere, because you get to the point of understanding yourself as a infinite spiritual being, and realize you ARE your soul and you do not die, BUT you are still trapped to a degree. But start with Dianetics. That’s the basic.

[Pause] Bill, answering that question is like trying to tell you something in a capsule. But it’s actually what we’ve been trying to share with you since we met you, why we wanted you to come and spend a week or two or five days with us. We’ve never been able to make it happen, and the offer’s still open for you to visit us and let us share more with you.

B: Well, sure. I mean, the problem there, of course, is I’m not a technical person; I’m not even an auditor - just a solo auditor. My job here is different, so it’s a way of creating enough of a curiosity-mystery-sandwich-hook to get people to ask the right questions.

D: Okay. I’m not talking about sharing it technically with you, but applying it directly to you. For those purposes we also have the conditions below Confusion and we have them in a way that I could… What we have is very interesting to most people that were brought up in that discipline, and that’s something that could be shared. It could be shared.

B: Okay. I think we can actually boil this down into something that will end up looking like a pretty decent transcript. We’ve had a lot of success before with converting audio interviews that have been really quite broken up, with lots of breaks and interruptions, into something that actually reads very fluently.

D: I was very moved by Alex Collier, were you?

B: Oh yeah. A wonderful man.

D: I’m very moved by Alex, and I thought: Wow, if that’s a by-pass, you know, if we could make a connection and receive a mentorship at this stage that might not be a bad thing at all to make that connection.

B: Yep.

D: I went up to him and I said: Would you assist us? And he said: Yes. I’ll meet you halfway.

I thought that it would be great to see if he could pull some people that are interested in that, in having some mentorships of that nature, because it would be mentorship about how to get along in this part of the galaxy and what we might do to give ourselves a better chance here and now.

B: It’s a fascinating conversation. I’m sure it’s already happening. I mean...

D: As a result of Alex’s message?

B: No. It’s been happening for years.

D: Sure. But I mean, he had a very specific message that the Andromedans wanted him to deliver, like...

B: Yes. It’s like we step up the program, but... I’ve talked on record now about my own strange ET experiences 25 years ago and I’m sure I’ve been mentored all the time. What am I doing here right now? What are we doing talking to each other?

D: Right, right, right. Why are we, who are we together?

B: Exactly. And so I think that with that encouragement, that support, that catalysis, that there are unseen hands. I mean of us, everything that we’ve experienced, how it was that Camelot came together.

I mean, this whole game that I’m on here started three days after I finished the Games Master Course, you know. Did you know that? Camelot is a product of the Games Master Course. Absolutely. I spent 18 months doing the Games Master Course and then... bang.

D: And here’s the game! You got the game! [laughs]

B: Of course, absolutely. This whole thing from my perspective is a kind of Games Master Project.

D: Isn’t that incredible?

B: I mean, I’ve said to people very quietly from time to time that if you want to know what the Games Master Course does or can do, look at this.

D: It’s Camelot! Wow.

B: So this is a product of the Bridge. I mean, that needs to be understood very carefully, very subtly, because I’m not kind of saying... You know, this isn’t a me-me, ego-ego thing. This has nothing to do with that. Everyone’s got their own process, and Kerry’s come to that independently, but you’ve gotta see the whole thing as a whole. It’s got to do with the nature of responsibility. I’m responsible for everything, but so are you.

D: Right.

B: So is everybody, and so the whole thing overlaps and it builds holographically.

D: Yeah.

B: But I know that I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing without the journey over the Bridge and so for me there’s nothing ineffective about what happened after the Church split apart. I was never in the Church and I only found the subject in 1984 with one of the splinter groups in London.

There are miracles happening all over the place, and this is a manifestation of one of them.

D: I think I misspoke on this concept. I’m comparing it to what Hubbard wanted to do, not to the fact there aren’t miracles that came out of what Hubbard did. There were many, many people that went on to manifest extraordinary things, like Bill Robertson, but compared to clearing the planet, that dream was busted.

B: Yes. I think my understanding - which is a conversation we should take offline - is that there’s something different happening now. There are a lot of things that are happening off-planet. You know, you haven’t talked about the Galactic Patrol.

D: Right.

B: You haven’t talked about how come all these people are suddenly here in this lifetime, all working together doing this thing, you know?

D: Absolutely.

B: What is it to be missionaires, and what does that mean? And why is it that when the Sea Org members were asked to sign a billion-year contract, they said Okay, no problem. What did that mean?

D: Right.

B: And what is that symbolic of?

D: Yeah. Like we’ve already signed one. This is just a reaffirmation of what we’re already doing. [laughs]

B: Exactly. That’s right. And many recent observers have commented on the fact that there’s this very huge influx of people who’ve come here with a very strong sense of mission, and these don’t seem to be ordinary human beings.

These seem to be people with much enhanced abilities, but just because they’re here on this planet, they need to have everything because you arrive here and you can’t remember a damn thing, and you don’t know what you should be doing, and you’re all confused. I mean, it wasn’t like what we call it, and so all of that has to be repaired.

But most of the missionaires here have never actually done any work in Scientology. That’s an assist program. It’s like a specific assist program to rehabilitate certain abilities. Some people just say, Well, to hell with it. I’ll just do my job anyway.

D: Right, like Kerry. Absolutely. And some people are coming in with such awareness and ability that, you know... At the time in the ’50s there weren’t people like that, you know. You went through a program to get that, you didn’t come in and have it.

D’s friend: What’s her name, the third person in your little group?

D: I actually don’t feel cool saying the third person’s name because she so much doesn’t want that. They attacked her... they never attacked me... they attacked my friend here too, but with her it was the kind where they go through the trash and go to the house and knock over and over for months and years on the door, lots of that kind of stuff, and she got scared and she left town and she stopped delivering.

B: When did that happen?

D: Ten years ago.

B: Oh, as recently as that?

D: Oh yeah, the Church kept going after her. She was delivering for a while in a small way. She was well-known in the organization and so, you know, the harassment just didn’t stop. They just wanted her to stop delivering.

You know, one thing I didn’t talk about is I know how all the upper level materials even got out in the public. I know who did it. I know how the Class Eight tapes got out into broad public domain.

B: You’re talking about... what’s his name?

D: Larry West?

B: Larry West, yes.

D: I know who gave him the stuff.

B: But some of that stuff has been altered, hasn’t it?

D: Oh yeah, everything’s been altered. There’s nothing that doesn’t get touched. because every person wants to be creative and put their own touch on it. But even the Class Eight tapes, things like this, when this all happened, this was done after Dane Tops, that this stuff came out.

But I know who got it out, and how they got the Class Eight tapes out, and how it was masterminded because that material was much protected – you couldn’t get to that. I’ll tell you the operation sometime if you want to hear it.

It was really, really incredible, but when that material started coming out the confidential veil was broken for the Church to keep their methods secret.

B: Okay. That was like the second stage of this whole... exodus.

D: Within three years after the Dane Tops letter, people were empowered to go on their own, because they could get original material to use to help people that had all been locked up. No one would have ever dreamed of using it outside the confidential confines and inner holy sanctums.

B: Yes.

D: I‘ll put it that way. Many of the stellar people went on their own, and then they failed and believed they had realized it was all a wash, instead of that they were manipulated to quit and discredit all of it.

But, the thing Ron Hubbard said about it, that it’s not going to hold together without the organization, that was true. Everybody wants to be an individual. And unfortunately, that sometimes means changing something that doesn’t need changing, when it just needs to be applied as intended.

B: Okay. Agreed. There’s a lot of individuality in the alternative media, certainly. It’s amazing how people with similar purposes often don’t work together well.

D: You bet.

B: Let’s call that a wrap. Kerry, do you have anything else here before we close?

K: No. This has been fascinating. Really fabulous.

B: Absolutely. Thank you so much. We could talk for a long time more, but this has been quite an amazing story. A lot of people will be new to this and will be fairly mind-blown by it all. They’ll have to go through it several times!

D: [Laughs] Probably.

B: Okay. Thank you again. Take good care of yourself. Still standing after all these years. That’s a wonderful example.

Click here for the original Dane Tops Letter.
Click here for a book, The Montauk Book of the Dead, written by Peter Moon, the author of the Montauk series of books, who worked alongside L. Ron Hubbard for many years. Highly recommended as a well-written and balanced account.
Click here for a 1987 BBC radio documentary, Ruthless Adventure: the lives of L. Ron Hubbard, a very balanced and interesting account containing archived interviews and little-known research material.

Click here for a section of Walter Bowart's unpublished book, The Invisible Third World War, making reference to L. Ron Hubbard and his techniques. Bowart was never a Scientologist, but understood the value of Hubbard's work and techniques.
Click here for a Channel 4 (UK) documentary on Scientology as delivered by Ron's Org, the largest 'splinter group', founded by Bill Robertson in 1984. Amusing and balanced.
Bill Ryan's personal Scientology connection is through Ron's Org (see immediately above), from which he has gained a great deal of benefit. He was never in the Church of Scientology, and is
on the famous Church of Scientology Enemies' list.




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Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy