Frazier : A Healed Planet, and the role of Free Energy
With Dr Brian O'Leary
the audio interview
Bill Ryan (BR): This is Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy
from Project Camelot. It’s Friday the 27th of March,
2009, different time zones in different parts of the world.
I’m in Europe. Kerry is in Los Angeles. Brian is in Ecuador.
Wade, you’re in Seattle? Is that right?
Wade Frazier (WF): Yes.
BR: We’re delighted, Wade, to be talking with
you. Wade Frazier, like Brian O’Leary, who we had the
great pleasure of meeting and talking with at length in Ecuador
back in January, is a veteran free-energy activist.
Brian O’Leary was in the astronaut
program, and is himself a veteran free-energy activist. He’s
done a lot to investigate phenomena on the fringes of mainstream
science, is a very accomplished speaker, has been everywhere
and knows everyone, and we're very proud to feature him as
one of the Witnesses on our site.
But not so many people will have heard of Wade Frazier. His
website, which is called ahealedplanet.net,
has 1,200 pages. It is encyclopedic in its scope and it tells
Wade’s story of a non-stop running skirmish with the
whole issue of free energy. And you're taking to heart this,
as a cause, which is very much what Brian O’Leary has
Some people think that free energy is all about an inventor
sitting in a garage or a basement with a bunch of electronics
and magnets, and getting a little machine to work that will
light up a light bulb and everyone thinks: Gee Whiz! This
is a neat little device here. It’s an alternative to
having a windmill in my garden.
And this is very far from the point, because free energy is
at the hub of so many issues that are connected with how our
planet is run and controlled, that it really is one of the
very central places to start.
Wade, and what he has to say about free energy, needs to be
heard. It’s a very, very important story. And, what I’m
looking forward to here in the next hour or so is a conversation
primarily with Wade and Brian O’Leary, to talk about
why free energy is something that we should care about, why
it should be politicized, why it affects every corner of our
And for those people who have ventured into this area with
practical intentions, it’s proved to be quite a dangerous
path for them to tread because they can really interfere with
the agendas of others.
This is really what I would like to talk about. It isn’t
going to be a technical conversation. It’s going to be
a conversation about the paradigm shift that’s necessary
for free energy to be ushered into this world in the 21st century.
And I wonder, Wade, what it is about free energy that has
made this virtually your life mission? Why is it so important?
Why have you devoted so much of your time and your soul to
WF: Thank you, Bill. As you know, it
was a very long story that began when I was a child. I’m
over fifty now, but my journey in the alternative energy area
I was a teenager.
I was groomed to be a scientist from a very
young age. And when I was sixteen years old, one of my professional
mentors had invented an engine which was considered the best
for powering an automobile. It created quite a lot of interest
from the federal government in the United States. In fact,
they spent millions of dollars developing and analyzing it.
But also it never went anywhere. And, in fact,
the inventor was told that if he thought his engine was
going to make the internal combustion engine obsolete, he should
start making his funeral plans. And so this was my
introduction to this whole area, back in 1974.
BR: That was when you were still a teenager, Wade. Is
WF: Yes. I was sixteen
years old, and at that time I had the dream of changing the
energy paradigm in this world. At age sixteen I had no idea
what I could do about it, but it was a dream that I had. And
so then I continued my science studies.
And so, I think very importantly... In fact,
most of the people that I’m aware of in this field, we
generally have some kind of
mystical orientation because we’ve
had some experiences that opened our paradigm to beyond
the “scientistic” paradigm,
and saw a broader picture. Fellow travelers
in this field, I think most of them would say, that that was
Anyway, so... I then went to college and had
some strange experiences that
changed my studies from chemistry to accounting. Then I got
out of school and went to work in Los Angeles and did
my CPA thing.
After several years of kind of being frustrated
in the corporate world, I had another very strange set of events, capped
with a paranormal experience, that led
me directly into a company up here in Seattle. This was 1986. They were marketing
energy conservation equipment here in Seattle. Basically it’s
a heating system that would save
80% of your heating costs.
I joined the company as it was actually being bludgeoned out
of existence by the energy interests up here in the Northwest.
Because of that childhood dream and my background, even though
the company was destroyed, the founder couldn’t get rid
of me. So I ended up following him across
the country to Boston,
and then that’s when we started pursuing free energy,
if you will.
The technology that we were pursuing was actually marrying
the heat pump that Dennis Lee, the guy in Seattle, was marketing,
with the engine that my old mentor developed. [laughs] We were
actually trying to marry those together. Then we ended up in
Ventura, California, which is where I was raised, and then
started making a lot of noise.
I mean, my partner, Dennis -- he’s
the Indiana Jones of alternative energy. He’s
been behind bars, survived murder attempts. Currently
the Federal Trade
Commission is trying to shut him down.
Anyway, in Ventura then, we really got the attention of the
people who I will say manage the energy paradigm on this planet.
We received an offer in Boston and then we received another
one in California. My partner was offered
a billion dollars to fold up the operation and go away. The offer was made by
a CIA man who said he represented European interests.
A month after my partner declined their offer,
he found himself
in jail with a million-dollar bail. The
man who arrested him got promoted to be in charge of the jail,
a couple weeks later, and got an award, and all these
kinds of things.
So anyway, it was quite a radicalizing experience
for me because they eventually took their masks off in Ventura
to me and admitted
to my face that their job was to take us out. So they did
their best, and it was actually a pretty good job. They wrecked
many, many lives.
I ended up leaving Ventura back in 1990 after a couple of
us essentially sprung Dennis from
jail. He ended up only spending
two years behind bars. And then I spent the next twelve years
trying to figure out what I had just lived through and realized
that probably everything I thought I knew was
probably not true.
And so then, the result of those twelve years
of research... I
don’t know, I probably read a quarter-million pages of
material or something like that, and again, turned it into
website that I have today.
And yes, Bill, it’s a thing that the
energy situation... Humanity rides on top of it. In fact, humanity
always has. Life on Earth, the human journey, it’s
all... the energy situation is
at the root of all that.
And so an energy scarcity has defined the
human journey. Even though I live in the richest, most powerful
nation in history and the average American consumes eighty
times the calories that go into their diets, we’re
still a scarcity-based society.
The increasing level of energy use that the
West has enjoyed has definitely transformed our society in
many ways. It took a lot of old social structures and made
them obsolete. Slavery began with early civilization
and ended with early industrialization. The liberation of women...
all these things. There’s an essentially economic basis
that underlies that, which is powered by energy.
And what we found was that there’s people who manage
the energy situation on a global basis. It can be debated who
they are, what their motives are. Could they just be protecting
their market? I tend to believe that they are maintaining their
global power structure. That’s my conclusion.
And again, I’ve run into fellow travelers since then,
Brian among them, who... we’ve generally come to about
the same vicinity of understanding the problem, the issues,
and the opportunities and what’s possible.
So I’m aware, and I think Brian is, and most of us are
aware that there are energy technologies. You know, the guy
tinkering around in his garage, if he ever really comes up
with something, then he does attract the attention of the global
controllers, I’ll call them.
And in fact, people who poke their nose into this pretty deeply...
Again, it’s risky business. There’s a lot of people
who have had their lives wrecked, or they’re dead, or
they’re silenced somehow.
But some people, like Steven
Greer who’s a warrior --
or Dennis -- he ended up banging on the front door of the White
House and all this kind of stuff. And eventually Greer interacted
with at least a faction of this global control organization.
They admitted that they’ve paid
one hundred billion dollars in “quiet
money” over the last couple generations to put the lid
on “disruptive technologies”.
And I would say that free energy is probably
at the top of that list, although my understanding is, from
people very close to me who’ve witnessed some of these
things, that antigravity... the people that you interview on
your Project Camelot site. A lot of the things that I hear
them say are things that I’ve
also had experience of.
And so, we kind of come to the same general vicinity. But
my message, and I think Brian’s... essentially there’s
a big picture to see here, and the energy situation is really
the keystone of the thing.
And, as far as why free energy and what it can bring about
seems to be so unimaginable in our societies. I don’t
know how conspiratorial that’s been, because eventually,
after all my years of study and experience, etcetera, and being
introduced to Bucky Fuller’s work, I came to realize
what these ideologies have that
keep us from seeing the big picture.
They all are scarcity-based and so they all
have a scarcity-based component to them. And in fact they also
have a component where, if you give your allegiance to this
certain ideology, then it feeds you. And so you’re very
reluctant to give up your belief system.
So free energy, etcetera... there can be an abundance-based
foundation of our society, which... the human journey’s never
seen that. So it’s something that really... it’s
difficult to wrap your head around. It takes a long time to
And what I found is you have to really lay
aside all your conditioning of your scarcity-based
kinds of ideologies like
capitalism, or nationalism, or a lot of the scientism, the
rationalist / materialist paradigm. All these things are very
subtly scarcity-based. Some are less subtle than
others, but in the end that’s what they have all in common.
And so, what free energy ends up doing is you can actually
replace that scarcity assumption with
an abundance assumption.
It’s a shift that would be... we’ve never seen
I mean, in fact all of the epochal so-called
revolutions of the human journey -- the super-predator
or the domestication revolution, or the industrialization
revolution -- essentially humanity was able to tap into another energy
source and control a bunch more energy in a way that was able
to free up people beyond survival.
I live in the United States and it’s been a pretty comfortable
existence to be an American, even though most Americans today
are wondering if they’re going
to lose their job next week.
BR: Walking some of our listeners through
this world that you describe as a thought experiment... Supposing
there was a little black box in every house and in every truck,
or in every plane there’s a slightly larger black box,
and every power station has a really big black box. And this
black box just gave as much output as one needed at zero cost
once you’ve actually got this thing there. How does the
world change? I’d love to ask Brian’s view.
Brian O’Leary (B’OL): Hi. Hello
everybody. It’s good to be talking with you again, Bill,
and to hear you’re reading Wade, because certainly both
Wade and I have had parallel pathways of discovery, of stepping
outside of the box of mainstream thinking. It’s taken
quite a while, and it can be a very painful process. It’s
a process that the general public now is, I think, beginning
to awaken to.
In answer to your question, Bill, imagine a world where we
have these, say, little 10-kilowatt power-packs that you can
put in your circuit-breaker box or under the hood of your car.
The world would change overnight. Let’s say we made two
or three billion of these...
Now, I’m not saying that I necessarily advocate doing
this under the system we now have. And that, of course, then
begs the question of political and economic control, and some
of the reasons why this technology has been so suppressed.
And believe me, Wade and I have personally had many, many experiences
around that since our own awareness became more pronounced.
So what I see happening is that this new world -- as long
as the governments of the world and the corporations of the
world change systemically--and that’s been my plea...
Gosh, on my website I just posted a
letter to Obama. It was
an open appeal, basically, to please address the systemic changes
we need so that we can usher in some of these new technologies
in a very benign way, that we can do things
differently, that we don’t want Dick
Cheney running this one, too. Nor do we want the current US
government, such as it is, to be running this one.
Obviously these technologies are a big threat
to vested interests, whether you’re a scientist... And
we know that the whole history of science is just riddled with
denial of new developments, whether it was during the Copernican
revolution, the time of Keppler, Galileo. The Wright
brothers -- their initial flight, the reporter that reported it was
far from its position and Scientific
American about a year later ran an editorial, a scathing
that aviation ever existed - because it
Historically we can look at the structure of
scientific revolutions -- Thomas
Kuhn’s book -- and I know Wade is acutely aware
of this. We’ve both been studying this kind of thing
about paradigm shifts many times, and it’s now happening
once again in spades. And as Wade points out, the energy picture
in our time is probably more important than anything else.
And so we have to kind of break this down and look at this
from a sociologist’s point of view as: Who’s
doing the suppressing and why are they doing the suppressing? And
what you find when you really look at these things -- because
Wade and I have already seen for ourselves numerous demonstrations
of proof-of-concept of the new energy technologies -- why
are they so violently suppressed?
So you have this unwitting alliance among scientists, corporatists,
governments. Even progressives - people who otherwise might
want to embrace this possibility - even the progressives are
not looking at these things, and that, of course, is the saddest
And so, in our own way Wade and I kind of in parallel discovered
that there is a whole process. It’s an emotional process.
It’s a sociological one, where people who are trying
to protect their own interests seem to dig their heels in even
more than they otherwise would have, in order to protect their
careers or their vested interests.
So the scientists... most
of the mainstream scientific community, just like in the early
days of aviation, are denying the possibility of free energy
and will go out of their way to debunk it. And there certainly
have been many, many examples of that.
But it’s not only the scientists. It’s the government
itself. It’s the progressives. It’s... The people
that call themselves environmentalists are obviously not radical
enough. They’re thinking of things like solar energy
and wind energy.
But, you know, one of the disappointments I came to, back
in the ’70s when I was working for Morris Udall... He
was a congressman who was running for president, and he wanted
to develop renewable clean energy, and in those days my only
horizon of awareness was solar, wind, the so-called traditional
But then a later study, if you look at the cost and benefits,
you find that solar and wind is materials-intensive; it’s
land-intensive; it’s capital-intensive. We’re talking
about tens of trillions of dollars to invest in a whole new
system of solar or wind to provide the world with its power,
and that’s just not going to fly, especially in today’s
We need to be smarter about this. We need to look into the
21st century, towards those technologies that will truly give
us a clean energy society.
And my own discovery... During the 1980s and ’90s I
traveled the world and visited some of the best and brightest
inventors and wrote some books about this. And I finally came
to my Ah-ha! that indeed this could change the world
if it were implemented properly.
So this whole new energy activism that Wade
and I share is a great enthusiasm, but there’s also this
undercurrent of sadness about how our planet, and almost all
of nature, is being destroyed by a cancerous humanity that
is not awakening to these possibilities, which could then buy
us a little time while we really try to reform our culture
and do the systemic changes that we really need to do.
BR: Brian, thank you. That’s a wonderfully articulate
presentation of the problem and presentation of the challenge.
I’d like to ask Wade if you could tell the second-hand
story of this free energy pioneer, whose credibility you feel
is total, who you said was shown by “The Powers That
Be” what technology they actually have. And it was explained
to him why they’re keeping this secret. This is a story
that people need to hear.
WF: Yes. During my years I came in contact
with quite an interesting group of people. And anyway, one
of my very close associates, yes, was shown -- in a very remote
setting -- some
of the technologies that exist today on Earth: antigravity,
free energy. These technologies exist, you know.
And for me, I put my jigsaw puzzle together
of the picture at least that I see from all of this. And the
people who have really been out there -- I mean, it’s
not for the timid -- and the people who have survived
anyway being out there and come back to tell what they’ve
experienced... And the picture that I see is that the people
who are calling the shots on the planet like calling
the shots on the planet, and they don’t want to give
Energy independence would truly make everybody
independent. And so, we are so energy dependent. We are so
dependent on other people providing us our energy. If we actually
had our own source of it, the very centralized, very steeply
hierarchical political-economic-social systems we have in the
world would become obsolete.
For instance, this friend of mine who had this demonstration...
the people who are currently addicted to the power that they
have over the planet, they will do whatever it takes to maintain
it. And the technologies they have are way beyond
what is on the market today. I mean, it’s Star Trek kind
BR: Wade, did your friend tell you what it was exactly
that he was shown? And was he given an explanation for why
he was being shown this? And I’m assuming he must have
been given an explanation why this technology was being withheld
and not being released.
Kerry, it might be better, to help Wade, if you could take
the lead on this, because Wade is having trouble understanding
my gentleman’s accent here.
Kerry Cassidy (KC): [laughs] I know. That’s OK.
I’m sorry about that. Wade, what he wants to know, and
I’d love to know myself, what exactly was the technology
that your friend was shown?
WF: At least free
energy, and at least antigravity.
OK? Those were two of the technologies that were definitely
shown off. OK? And I almost didn’t want
to know a whole lot more because the knowledge can be considered
dangerous to have. But there was a host of exotic technologies
that were demonstrated, free energy and antigravity probably
KC: You say that technology was demonstrated.
In other words, did they see craft, for example?
WF: This was in an underground setting,
so they definitely didn’t want to fly anything around,
or at least the antigravity demonstration wasn’t
something like a mothership. It was pretty small.
But anyway, I’m saying these technologies were demonstrated.
And again, the people who demonstrated them admitted that they
do not have the freedom to essentially come above-board and
bring this stuff to the world. And they also, though, said
that they would like to bring it out, but it’s not safe.
KC: OK. Why was your friend shown this? Why him?
WF: Oh, why was my friend...? OK. So, my fr... Boy!
This is where I have to be kind of careful. The circles I run
around in -- I have run around in; I’m kind of semi-retired
from this stuff -- but again, they go banging on the front
door of the White House, go banging on the front door of the
Pentagon, go banging on the front door of some corporations.
Sometimes you get to meet the wizard. This person was high
profile at the time. They were banging on the doors. They were
stirring things up and they got a show.
KC: OK. Can you tell us what aspect of, or do you know,
what part of the military was involved in showing this stuff?
WF: This person does not even know who
it was who showed it to him.
KC: Fascinating. OK. Very interesting.
WF: This was a very, very secure operation. So secure...
KC: And where was the underground base located? Can
you say the state?
WF: I am not sure. I believe it was in
the United States. This person does not know where. They were
taken there blindfolded. And they get to take the blindfold
off, and they’re underground
someplace, and there’s these people demonstrating something.
And they’re talking to you and they know who you are.
And they’re saying: Hey,
we've got some things to show you. It was that kind of
WF: Until this person wants to talk publicly
about it, I am not going to reveal too much information about
it. Stuff that people have disclosed publicly, then I will.
So, again, Dennis
got a billion-dollar offer.
When I was with Dennis, we had some very interesting interactions
with some of these groups. And again, as I recall, Bill calls
them white-hats and black-hats. And we had
encounters with both groups. OK?
And we would get periodically contacted by
the white-hat group. It was very cryptic. All of a
working in the office late one night and you get a telephone
call. And it’s like: "Keep up the good work." This
kind of thing. And so you’re kind of wondering: "What
was that all about?" [laughs]
So anyway, all I know is that during my days with Dennis,
we were extremely high profile. And in fact I have written,
because it’s a little safer to disclose it now, but when
I was with him in ’96, ’97 we were subjected to
an extremely elaborate sting operation
that was trying to entrap us. And again, it was people who said they were going to give
us a bunch of money to make things happen.
About a year later I heard Tom
Bearden talking about a very
similar situation, saying how: "Yes, they say they’re
going to come and give you all this money, but it’s dirty
money, and as soon as you sign for the money they whisk you
off to prison."
And it wasn’t until... actually it was last fall that
I started writing about the
financial meltdown and my interactions
with some of these players and I came to slowly realize that
we were being set up, and in fact in almost the same kind of
operation that Bearden described.
It was extremely elaborate,
with penthouses in Manhattan and sovereign nations being
involved. It was very elaborate. And I really don’t know.
What was real and what was fabricated? I don’t know.
How many people were duped and how many were in on it? I’ll
probably never know.
But I do know that we were being set up, whoever all these
people are. Again, the Federal Trade Commission right now is
trying to shut down Dennis. I haven’t been involved with
Dennis since the ’90s, but they’re trying to shut
him down right now.
And when they clobbered
us in Ventura, when they clobbered
him in Washington, or they were about to clobber
us in Boston,
it’s usually the government that’s wielding the
public club. But they’re just taking orders. I
mean, they’re not the guys really in charge of the operation.
And that’s when Dennis
got the billion-dollar offer to fold up his tents and go away,
that was not delivered... Oh yes, CIA representing European
interests, or at
least that’s what they said. So that’s... There’s
your private/government, quasi- kind of thing going on. And
then, again, the government comes and shuts you down.
The sting operation that we were being subjected to, at the
same time that I get a letter from our phone company that the
Justice Department had subpoenaed
our phone records and gagged
them for six months from notifying us that they had, etcetera.
You’re kind of wondering who all is involved,
and how many different ways they’re coming at you. And
I saw that in Seattle in ’86. I saw that in Ventura.
We were subject to kind of a whole new level of the game when
I was with Dennis back in ’96, ’97. So anyway,
KC: Why do you think that was, though? Was it because
you guys were so close?
WF: Why that we got the attention that we did?
WF: Oh, because my partner, he... Again,
when I met him in ’86, he was selling equipment. He
was actually making an economic
impact in the marketplace.
And again, the closer you get to the market, the greater the
resistance is going to be.
So, yes, a guy tinkering in his garage, they
just... they leave him... They’ll keep tabs on him, but
going to pretty much leave him alone unless he really comes
up with something. Then he’ll get some attention.
But we had a national effort going on. He sold
quite a few millions of dollars of his heat pump. And
he was trying to carpet Puget Sound with these heat pumps
which was... One calculation was the local electric company
was going to lose something like twenty billion dollars in
revenues over the next twenty years.
KC: Wade, when you say the white-hats were trying to
show you this technology and they would call you up late at
night and encourage you, do you know anything more about who
the white-hats were? And did your friend actually ever have
any kind of meetings with those white-hats? Were they military?
WF: I’ll say this. I described
the underground situation, and we would get called, and then
we actually did get the suave façade of the black-hats,
offering us a billion dollars, and then I’m
sure they were behind what happened to us in Ventura. I do
listen. And again, for instance, Steven Greer has interacted
quite a bit in these arenas, and the picture that he has developed
of what he’s
seen, I pretty much think he’s right.
And so, in fact when they mentioned the hundred
billion dollars in “quiet money”, I was going: "Well,
that makes perfect sense." Because just in my
run into quite a few inventors who had been bought out, threatened,
killed, this kind of thing. And when I heard that, a hundred
billion dollars in quiet money, it made perfect sense.
Brian’s friend, John
Rappoport, he said there’s
eight economic cartels on the planet that kind of divvied up
the world economy. I won’t deny that, because I’ve
seen similar activities taking place in medicine, media,
these kinds of things.
KC: Wade, can you talk about the white-hats, though?
WF: I will talk about the white-hats.
interesting. I have one person I encountered once who was abducted,
drugged, and put into an insane asylum. And when they were
in this asylum -- and it was a way to keep him quiet -- there
were kind of white-hat people in the asylum who were kind of
looking out for him. I’m sure you guys have encountered
this in some of the things I’ve read on your site, where
this kind of thing goes on. So there are these kinds of surreptitious
And I don’t know exactly how that structure
operates, but my understanding is that the, let’s say
two- to three-hundred people who are kind of the policy-makers
for the world economy... I would say that thirty years ago
it was a very small fraction of them, like five percent, or
maybe just a few here and there, who were kind of not really
sure they liked the program any longer.
Several years ago I
heard Greer say that it’s almost
50/50 now, to where the so-called white-hats... I don’t
know how white those hats are but I believe that there’s
a definite fracture in that structure, to where a lot of them
realize that we’re going to turn the Earth into a cinder
on the path we’re going. And so, they don’t like
that program. They have grandchildren and this kind of thing.
And so I think there has been a fracturing happen because
the game’s getting pretty scary for them and so they
don’t want it. So I don’t know how white those
hats are. But I believe that what my friend was shown in the
underground setting was some faction of that disenchanted half.
That is my perception.
KC: So you believe that these people basically took
care of your operation in Ventura. They closed it down, in
WF: Oh yes. In fact, when
they raided us I was twenty-nine, young and naïve,
and thirteen armed deputies come in and kick us out of the
buildings. And then they ransack our chief researcher’s
office, strip it out to the walls, and then didn’t
start the so-called “official
several hours later, said they never were in the room... except
the researcher and one of our machinists, who was out behind
the building, were able to actually see into the building and
watch them ransacking the office. So this was when they first
So at that moment we realized that this had nothing to do
with trying to see if we’re committing crimes or not.
I mean, they were committing the crimes right off the bat.
Anyway, at that moment we realized that... I mean, I realized
that definitely this had nothing to do with trying to protect
the public or anything like that.
And then, for me though, it was a thing of...
until I was on the witness stand -- and Dennis was in leg irons
and with a million-dollar bail -- and the prosecution is actually
making faces at
me as I’m on the witness stand. I mean,
in kind of a Stalinist show-trial atmosphere. In fact
the guy making faces at me was the guy who was in charge of
the jail that Dennis was in.
And then at that moment, that was essentially
my radicalizing moment, where a twelve-year journey of gradual
disillusionment, etcetera, sort of came to a head for me and
I kind of: "Ah-ha!" That
was my big Ah-ha! moment, sitting
on the witness stand where they’re making faces at me
as I’m testifying.
KC: Wade, I’d like to go over to Brian... what
you can say about how the world needs to change in order to
accept free energy and whether you think that there’s
actually any hope at the moment for that happening?
BO’L: Very good question, Kerry, and I wish I
could answer it simply, because who knows what The Powers That
Be are doing in quiet session right now.
What I can say is that the concepts are there. There’s
a very clear possibility we can develop these things, and there
are many of us who’ve been advocating it for a long time.
It seems like the political climate hasn’t really changed.
On the other hand, the public is getting really
pissed off at what’s happening. Certainly the economic
all going through right now is perhaps a metaphor or symbol,
an archetype, for what could happen in the energy area, that
even the protestors -- the Bill McKibbens of the world
or the so-called free thinkers about Peak Oil or global warming,
whether it’s James Hansen or Richard
Heinberg or all
of these other people who have advocated radical change --
still do not embrace the possibility of free energy.
So even though some of us, Wade and I and a number of others,
have been attempting to educate some of these more visible
progressive people about the possibility of free energy...
and I’ve even had conversations with Congressman Dennis
Kucinich about it and he did carefully listen. He did acknowledge
it. He did want to introduce legislation to support the research
and development on it and make this publicly more visible.
Even though all of these things have been acknowledged and
communicated, the fact remains that the consensus among the
so-called progressives is still a complete denial about the
possibility of free energy.
And that, to me, was the most astounding discovery I made
that -- having done almost two decades ago my world travels
to find out for myself as a scientist that indeed these concepts
are very real; there are many, many different parallel technologies,
any one, or some of which could do the trick -- but whenever
it comes time for actual development of it, that’s when
people step in.
And that discovery which I made on my own, and Wade has made
it on his own, and many, many others -- Tom Bearden -- many,
many other people on the cutting edge of these technologies
have all come to believe that the world is definitely controlled
by a cabal of people who don’t want this to happen.
That’s the saddest part of it, is the
lack of awareness among most people in the world that this
is even a possibility. And if I were to develop policy, my
own thinking is that: "Well,
we should leave no stone unturned in our quest for clean energy,
and creating a world of abundance."
But somehow that’s perceived by The Powers That Be as
a threat to them, just like significant economic reform -- or economic
revolution is probably a better word now for the situation
we’re in -- has been vehemently opposed by Wall
Street and the people in charge. They’re digging their
So we’re involved in this incredible storyline that’s
probably more sensational than anything that could be dreamt
up in Hollywood. And unfortunately most people have been very
slow to awaken to this possibility.
Because in a sense the politically palatable
way of presenting this material is that, simply: "This
is a possibility. Let’s
look at it. Let’s see how we might be able to implement
it. Let’s see what kind of world we can have with this
implementation." These are the questions that need
to be asked now.
KC: OK. Thank you, Brian. Wade, what do you think about
the potential for free energy now, after you’ve been
through all that you’ve been through? Politically, I
mean... What do you think the chances of actually turning the
tide, as you say, using white-hats who are obviously, you know,
not happy with the situation? And there are many people behind -- they’re
very unhappy with the current situation. They’re looking
for news ways of doing things. Do you think that the climate
is such that perhaps this new energy technology can now come
WF: I think you’re kind of getting to the nub
of the matter here. In my work -- and again the things
I realized, and this was through my radicalizing experiences -- there’s
the black-hats and the white-hats and they’re definitely
doing their thing.
At the same time, they’re really not
very powerful. I mean, you’re talking maybe
a few thousand people out of six billion people. And
they have definitely a lot of tricks in their bag.
But when the dust settled in Ventura I realized
that if I had
a hundred Dennis's, free energy would have been
easy. It would have been... We’d have been unstoppable.
only a few of him on the planet.
So, the thing is for me, is that it’s not about the
white- and black-hats. It’s about us, the great unwashed
masses. We can make it happen. But we can’t make it happen
if we can’t even imagine that it can be better.
That’s the message that I’m trying
to get across. I’m trying to make
free energy thinkable. I’m trying
to make it to where... to bring it out of, either as Bill said,
some guy tinkering in his garage, or some Star Trek fantasy
or something, to say: "Now these things,
I know they’re real. I know they’re possible." And
the outcome of that...
I’ve been living with this for many years. I can
barely imagine what it could do. The whole course of the human journey
could change very dramatically. And so, I think if enough people
kind of understood that, it wouldn’t take very many people
to just even think about this stuff to maybe create enough
momentum to go in the direction of helping it happen.
Because what happens is, the people pursuing
these things, they’re out there alone in the desert.
I mean, that’s
the problem. They’re out there alone in the desert and
they’re so vulnerable. Again, most people just
take the money. So the hundred billion dollars in quiet
money... I bet that worked ninety-five percent of the time.
They just took the money and it was over.
KC: And when you don’t take the money, what do
you think happens to the people when they don’t take
WF: Then they
start playing rough.
WF: And again, most people take the
money. In fact, again, Bearden,
I heard him talk eleven years ago or so about this. And so
what they do is... it’s a
carrot and stick.
They’re very subtle. I mean, it’s a very... how
to say it? If they came right out in the open and it was very
obvious what they were doing, too many people would catch on.
So it’s a very sophisticated, very subtle kind of way
they operate. You know, it took me over ten years after
the sting operation almost nabbed us for me to kind of figure out
what was going on. And so it’s very subtle.
And Bearden talks about how they operate. Again,
seen, I think he’s right. And also what I’ve seen,
though, is that one provocateur set loose in the midst of a
hundred average people? Provocateur
when you start having the pressure of like we were experiencing
in Ventura and Seattle.
KC: So what is it... do you think that they’re
still after you, so to speak, in that they’re still messing
with you and the people that you know that are working in this
WF: Oh God! Oh sure!
KC: Do you think they’re still messing with you?
WF: I don’t know of an issue of
a greater magnitude than the energy issue that humanity’s
facing right now. Oh my God, we’re having wars in Asia,
killing millions of people over the hydrocarbons.
The issue is so multi-faceted, it’s so immense, that...
Oh yes, this is being very carefully managed.
And again, these “disruptive technologies” are
very carefully monitored. What my friend saw was somehow
somebody snuck something out the back door and demonstrated
some of the stuff, you know? It’s very tightly controlled
to make sure that “disruptive technologies”, particularly
like free energy, do not appear on the scene.
You know, it’s possible that it’s
going to come down to the white-hats and black-hats. It’s
possible that’s how it’s going to be determined.
Part of me hopes that’s not how it happens. Part of me
hopes that enough of US make
enough noise in a positive way.
But if enough people understood the potential, understood
what was possible, and understood how important they could
be to help making that happen by just simply
lending their awareness to the issue... That’s what I’m trying
to find out. I think that that’s a way that it can happen.
KC: Thank you, Wade. That’s great. Brian, I would
like to ask you, because it sounds like you and Wade are actually
on the same page with this, as far as what’s necessary
next is to get the word out in such a way
that people become educated so that the mass of people can
actually maybe turn the tide. Is that your feeling?
BO’L: Absolutely, Kerry. And indeed Wade and I
are on the same page. And it’s not very many of us on
this planet that are on the same page right now, so it’s
kind of a lonely process. But to the degree that we can at
least instill in enough people the fact that these things are
very real, that the concepts have been shown to exist, that
their development requires an R & D effort like anything
else that involves new technologies. This certainly has happened
in information technology quite abundantly.
KC: So, Wade, what are you doing now? I mean, I know
you’ve kind of run a very hard race, it sounds like,
trying to get this stuff out there. Are you in touch with some
people now that are actually working on free energy that are
being interfered with?
WF: Yes. Yes, there’s some. I lived
through it. On my journey I saw enough people like me going
through similar things. Brian is in contact with many more
of those kind of people than I am. I’m aware of quite
a few. I’m
in touch with some. And I love them, these
people who are trying to do these things, but they
don’t have any support.
KC: Your effort is to drum up the support?
KC: In other words, you’ve kind of changed your
tactic from encouraging or working on free energy directly
yourself, to trying to drum up a grassroots effort?
WF: In the end, if I can have a part
in helping people just imagine that it’s possible, for
done. If I achieve that, I will have achieved something
that I would be happy to achieve. That would be enough for
me to just help enough people understand that these things
are feasible, and what can come out of that.
Yes, that’s where I’ve been since
1989 when I sprung Dennis from jail. I was pretty much done.
And again he got me to rejoin with him back in ’96, ’97.
I was only there a few months but it was a thing where I haven’t
really been actively involved in doing the Indiana Jones thing
for, again, twenty years.
And again, three years was... That was enough. It was enough
for one life for me of doing that. In fact, I don’t know
how Dennis does it. Some of these people, I don’t know
how they do it. I really don’t know.
KC: When you say you don’t know how they do
it, you’re saying you don’t know how they
deal with the opposition that they get? Is that what you
WF: No-no. I mean, so here’s Dennis,
survived a number of murder attempts, been behind bars twice
for two years, almost
got killed inside there, turned down a
billion-dollar offer to go away. There’s now, again,
to be some TV show’s going to smear him on Sunday. The
to shut him down, and he’s still at
it! That’s the part where I’m going: How do
you still keep doing it? So that’s the thing that,
for me, boggles my mind.
Or again, there’s other people. I mean, Greer’s
one of them. They go through immense hardships, and they come
back for more. And for me, that’s...
Like Brian. Brian’s
been doing this for a long time.
And I’ve been doing it, but I don’t play at their
level. I tried to do something
different and again, the ride was too rough for me. The ride
was too rough. And I said: "I can’t afford to
do that anymore". Anyway, that’s kind of what
I was saying, is that I don’t know how some of these
people are able to do what they do.
KC: Are you familiar with Ralph
Ring? Ralph Ring is
a free energy person from way back. Back in the ’60s,
the FBI came in and closed him down when he was working with
Otis Carr. So I wondered if perhaps you knew about him. He’s
KC: He’s actually now back at it. He’s back
at work trying to get funding, and...
WF: I have nothing but admiration...
KC: So do you give advice to these people?
John Hutchison, for example. Do you know him?
WF: Yes. I’ve interacted with Mr.
Hutchison. Oh man... it’s hard, because I can...
trying to do it is so honorable and wonderful, and the odds
against them are SO immense. I mean, they’re SO immense. in
today’s world. And so it’s like a mouse
trying to take on an elephant. And you’re seeing
this and my heart goes out to these people for this.
And again, I’m trying to say: " I’m
trying to get you some help by helping more people to become
aware of what’s going on." Because most of
these people, they just end up... as Brian said this is a
lonely, lonely journey. They can’t do it by themselves.
My opinion is that they don’t have a
prayer by themselves. They’re too vulnerable. It’s
easy to take them out. We had hundreds and hundreds of
people involved when they took us out. It takes more. It takes
with the right
KC: Do you think times have changed sufficiently to
where there might be a chance for these people, because of
the downturn in the economy and the discontent that’s
WF: Yes, I believe that the big shifts will happen quite
often when the current structure kind of crumbles. Right? So
it does bring opportunities.
Yes, these are very pregnant times. I believe that we are
in the middle of quite a transition. Whether we make it or
not is probably still an open question, but I think we are
in this transitory time when the old ways are starting to crumble.
So yes, there’s lots of opportunity.
And again, what Brian is trying to do, what
to do is to give extremely positive solutions that are right
there. It wouldn’t take much to turn
this into heaven on Earth. It really wouldn’t take
that much to do that. Definitely there’s more people
who are pulling up from the dream, let’s say, that we’re
all kind of fed, and trying to see differently. So yes, I think
KC: Well it’s wonderful to hear you say that.
And obviously, after all that you’ve been through, it’s
really extraordinary that you can still hold that perspective.
WF: Well, thank you, and it hasn’t been easy.
KC: [laughs] OK. Well I did want to ask you, what was
your paranormal event, or series of events, that pushed you
on this road?
WF: OK. I was this science
prodigy as a young child. And again, my
dad used to work in Mission Control,
and so... I mean, my dad left Houston just before Brian moved
there, and so we’ve had these kind of parallel...
Anyhow, I was this kind of space brat, scientist
kid. And as a teenager I started getting introduced to some
of the pretty mundane inventions that were, compared to what’s
on the market, truly revolutionary.
And again that’s when I started kind
it.” Like when I was twelve years old, my
father reversed the hardening of his arteries by adopting
a live-food diet, something that medicine at that time said
was impossible. So I was introduced to the impossible happening
at age twelve. And again, I had my mystical awakening at age
KC: OK. But what’s your mystical awakening? What
do you mean when you say your mystical awakening?
WF: OK. That’s a good question.
Brian and I had the same exercise that both initiated our mystical
awakening, which was... back then it was called the Edgar
Today they call it remote viewing. But I
was in a Silva
Mind Control class in 1974. Brian
took Lifespring in
And at the end of this training, you’re
given the name, age, sex, and city and then I was able to describe...
Well, actually more dramatically, I had somebody in mind, and
I gave this information to somebody else, and they were able
to describe to me -- in
startling detail -- this person.
That was the beginning of my mystical awakening,
was seeing people perform psychically, very dramatically. And
then it was my turn and I was able to do the same thing. And
Brian, when he took Lifespring, he had the same experience.
In fact, those classes were very popular in the ’70s.
Millions of people took them with similar results.
Anyway, for me, that turned something on in
me and I think it opened up my intuitive side. But again, to
me it was the beginning of my mystical awakening. And most
of my fellow travelers in this field, they usually had some
kind of experience like that when they were in their late teens
or early twenties. Greer had a
near-death experience at seventeen.
One of my fellow travelers had a Kundalini
experience as a college physics student and then developed
a free energy prototype that was immediately seized.
And again, he was in his early twenties. This is a very common
age when this kind of thing happened.
And my professional mentor that invented
the engine and stuff,
you know, “world’s best engine” comes
to him at a stoplight! Where does that come from?
So anyway, I just had enough of those kinds of experiences
and then had some of my own experiences that really opened
KC: What about UFOs? Did you have any kind of encounter
WF: Yes. I’ve encountered lots
of people who’ve
seen craft. Some people have had “close encounters
of the third kind”. But I just heard a lot of this stuff.
It was on my list of things to do, was to go out and see one,
Anyway, one of my fellow free energy travelers
said he would go down near Mount Adams and watch UFOs fly over.
A couple of my aerospace buddies from Boeing organized a trip
there, in 2005,
for us to go watch UFOs, and we got our show. And I went
back the next two years in a row, and I
got a show every year.
KC: Oh, you went to Trout Lake? [Ed.
note: James Gilliland's ranch in Washington state]
KC: Absolutely. We went as well, and we’ve seen
James Gilliland’s, you know, we’ve been up to his
ranch and saw the craft.
WF: Our first night there, James said: "Let
me see if I can get one to do something", and a
minute later one did, very dramatically. In fact, there
was an Air Force captain standing next to me, and again,
a couple of Boeing guys, and it blew their doors off, that’s
for sure. So anyway, yes. I’ve experienced that.
KC: Bill is telling me that when your friend had his
machine seized, that they knew it was there even though it
was a secret. Do you think they remote-viewed? They had their
remote viewers tap into the situation?
WF: You know, I don’t know on that
one. I just know that, actually it
got seized twice. I’m going: "Wow,
they must have pretty good surveillance to do that kind of
stuff." And then again in my circles, somebody who
should know said: "Oh yes. They can tell when anybody in
the planet taps into that field." And I’m like: "Oh...
I don’t know exactly how they’re able to surveil
and to do this but they did. He was a physics student and he
actually goes into this physics lab and he bread-boards a prototype
that works. I think he was using the radiant effect, which
is one of the free energy ways out there.
He had a Men-in-Black experience
a few hours later... seized the prototype. He was kind of booted
out onto the sidewalk, kind of going: "What the hell was
that all about?" He was probably, you know, twenty-one
or something. And anyway, so he’s like: "They can’t
So he goes and rents out some warehouse space
somewhere very secretly under an assumed name. So he’s
doing this secretly -- they’ll never find out. And he
ends up making it happen again and a few hours later, Men-in-Black
KC: That’s fascinating. I’m sure they surveil
the entire planet for free energy devices and I imagine they
are able to pick them up in the matrix.
WF: When I asked somebody: "How’d
they do that?" they said: "Well, they
have satellite technology that can surveil the whole planet.
Anybody taps into this ZPE field, they know it." So
like: "Oh. OK."
And, my understanding is that if you ever tap
into that kind of stuff, it depends on who you are and where
you are as far as what their response will be. So if you’re
a group of a hundred people, they’re going
to have to be very careful about how they do it. But if you’re
just a kid in a lab, they just send in the team. It’s
easy to take care of it with just one person.
KC: Do you think that their tactics have changed over
WF: I would imagine. In your
journey you just hear these various things happening, and you’re
kinda going: "Whoa! Look at that." Yes.
So what they used to, let’s say thirty
years ago or so, they were extremely violent. I mean I’ve
heard of stuff like a guy’s whole family being murdered,
and then they burn the house down and then bulldoze it.
And this kind of stuff has happened.
Dennis has been high profile a number of times. In Ventura
we were pretty high profile, and we were approached once.
I’m going to say probably thirty years
ago, there was this guy who was... he
had built a windmill farm out in the Southwest. He was
rich. He was like apparently worth four hundred million dollars,
and he invested thirty-five million dollars of his own money
into this windmill farm. He was making electricity. He was
trying to sell it to electric companies. And then he was working
late at the office one night and he gets a call and pretty
much the caller made it very clear that: "You
have a choice. You can either leave your facility there, never
return, or your family will be dead by dawn. What’s it
going to be?"
KC: [laughs] Wow.
WF: And again, when you’re worth
four hundred million dollars they can’t... what kind
of carrot can you give to somebody worth four hundred million
dollars? So they just come right out with the stick. Anyway,
this guy, he goes: Well,
I took out my calculator and I banged in the numbers and that
was nine percent of my net worth. And I just decided it ain’t
worth it. He
just packed his briefcase and leaves and never returned.
And again, he showed up at our office in a
limo just before they dropped the sledgehammer on us, and he
said: "I wish you guys the best, but you have no
idea what you’re
up against." So I kind of found out what he was talking
about. But I’m saying back then they used to
do stuff like that. My understanding is that it’s a more
subtle game that takes place now.
WF: What do you think Brian? Do you think it’s
more subtle nowadays?
BO’L: Oh, very good question, Kerry. Yes, I think
it’s a bit more subtle now. I know I’ve had my
own experiences and have matched it with others that go back
to the early ’90s -- and very unpleasant experiences
where I refused to be recruited into something and there was
some recrimination and some threats that I won’t go into
But I think if I compare my story with that of others and
look at the history of all of this... Although I can’t
say for sure because like my dear friend and late colleague,
Gene Mallove, was brutally murdered in ’04.
KC: What do you think tipped it over the edge with Mallove?
Do you think that he was too close to something or that he
simply couldn’t be brought under their wing in a certain
way? Why do you think they attacked him so brutally?
BO’L: He was a true hero. He’s one of my
heroes of my lifetime. I just tremendously respected his work
because... He was the chief science writer for MIT and in 1989
Fleischmann and Pons, two chemists from the University of Utah,
claimed to have discovered cold fusion, which is a process
that has now been replicated many, many times over by many
competent scientists. But at that time, 1989, their claim was
viciously refuted by some of the nuclear physicists at MIT.
Well, Mallove was going to support them in debunking the cold
fusion discovery and found instead that the MIT scientists
were not only falsely debunking the evidence but actually committing
fraud. And so he had the courage to stand up to these scientists,
and to MIT, whereupon he was summarily dismissed,
[laughs] went on his own, and founded Infinite Energy Magazine,
which I think is a wonderful magazine, particularly in those
days when he was editor.
He was a real advocate of new energy, probably the most articulate
one because he was very rigorous scientifically. He would not
make any claims that couldn’t be substantiated. And so,
obviously from the point of view of the world controllers,
he was a threat. And he was also in the process of getting
funding for creating a research and development laboratory.
He had been shuttling back and forth to Washington just before
his murder, which, although the cover story of the murder was
that it was a robbery, the real story... I would say almost
anybody that knew him, including his family, are just, you
know, beside themselves in trying to find out how this happened,
who did it, and so forth. And so there’s an example of
a real hero who was sacrificed.
KC: Do you think that he was sacrificed
because he was “one
of them” originally and because he was so articulate
and getting so close? I mean, in the sense that he worked for
MIT. He wasn’t just some guy with an invention
in his garage. He actually came out of a very sophisticated
BO’L: Yes. I would imagine, yes, because he was
one of the shakers and movers of the field and he pulled no
punches. He also had a very, very well-grounded scientific
and philosophical perspective on the issues raised by the possibility
of free energy. And so he just... this obviously disturbed
The Powers That Be.
Another example was Stefan Marinov, who was a professor of
physics at the University of Graz in Austria. And also just
a few years ago - I forgot the exact year, but it was early
this century - he “jumped” from the tenth story
of his library building at the University
Well, he was Europe’s premier free energy advocate.
I’d met him many times, talked with him. He seemed to
be a very jolly, and very, very well-adjusted person who was
doing really good breakthrough work, even had a motor that
he had invented which he demonstrated and quite widely showed.
So it’s just another example. There are just so many
examples of suppression.
John Hutchison, a dear friend of mine. We’ve toured
Japan together and he’s had... Thank God he’s still
alive. He’s just a brilliant man who has managed to develop
dramatic demonstrations of antigravity technology, with a fantastic
intuition, and just a very fine person. Well, the US military
has given him no end of problems.
So, you look at these stories, one
after another, and you have to come to the conclusion that
pretty consistently right up until this moment, these developments
have been suppressed. And is it getting any better? I don’t
know. I know we’ve
had these discussions, Kerry, and you have found some signs
that it is and I would love to think that it is.
I think that the people that really need to awaken here, as
Wade often suggests, that the only people that seem to awaken
and are able to peel the free
energy onion are people that
are already somewhat sentient and have had experiences in a
number of different avenues -- not only science, or not
only being a political progressive -- but that people
somehow need to go through many, many different experiences
in a variety of ways before they can even embrace the possibility
that this could happen.
I know for me, I had to go out and visit the
inventors, the researchers, myself and make it a
personal project to see these proofs-of-concept, and most people
have that luxury. And so I feel for them when somebody like
me... even though I have all these good credentials. Even so,
most people that call themselves “pragmatists” will
kind of roll their eyes or glaze, and they won’t even
look at the possibility that this could be.
But then if we understand the history of science.
If we understand the famous Bertrand Russell quote: "The
resistance to a new idea increases as the square of its importance"...
And if we’re talking about totally revamping the economy,
totally revamping our energy system, totally revamping our
whole industrial and financial culture, which is digging its
heels in alongside the military / industrial complex, you’re
talking about a revolution here, an energy-solution revolution,
which... to the degree that people can become educated to this
possibility and to acknowledge it -- or at least lean
into it -- to even ask the simple question: OK, I
don’t believe this is real or possible, but let’s
do a mind exercise and let’s say: “Well, OK, let’s
say if somebody comes along with a technology that could truly
do this, do we want to have it?”
And I should think that the clear answer would
be "Yes!" As
long as we can develop social and political systems to birth
this whole new paradigm shift, and then we have a fighting
chance, I think. And Wade, I’m sure you’d totally
agree that we have a fighting chance to save the planet, to
respect the Earth and nature.
KC: I think that’s wonderful, Brian. I think that,
you know, that’s a very good point and very well said
by you. And Bill wants me to say, that most
great scientists are mystics.
WF: Well that’s what... I mean, if you look at
the guys who... physics rides on their shoulders today, Einstein,
and Heisenberg, and Schrödinger, and these guys, they
all to one degree or another had
a mystical orientation.
And again in my own experience with my Tesla-like
mentor and again the other people, my fellow travelers, again
on the cutting edge of this free energy stuff, they pretty
much all have a mystical orientation, to one degree or another.
I mean, some are way out there. Some visit other dimensions.
And some are kind of like: "Oh, I think I have
past lives." So there’s
a spectrum there, but essentially they’re not materialists.
I mean, none of them are materialists.
KC: Wade, were you familiar with Mallove and his work?
WF: Somewhat. I was in contact with Mallove.
And again, the New
Energy Movement was organizing its conference that
it had in 2004 and Mallove was the first speaker lined up.
And anyway, we lined him up and a week after that, which was
a very strange week, very emotional... It was a bizarre week.
Anyway, he gets murdered as I’m being emailed from one
of the participants saying: "I think we’re under
I had that encounter with Mallove.
Again, the thing with Mallove, with me and
his work was that I read something he wrote less than a year
before he died where he was saying there’s
three main ways to go after free energy. And one of them
exact thing we were trying in Ventura [laughs], which was
taking atmospheric heat and being able to get useful work out
of it. And again, I was interested in what he had to say about
that, so I contacted him and we were going to have some more
exchanges, and then he died.
KC: Right. OK. I’m sorry. You
had spoken about that earlier on and I had forgotten about
Well, this is really very, very impressive. Both you guys
have got such a great background in all of this and the fact
that you’ve taken even your technical skills and turned
them into public speaking, to where you would actually bring
the knowledge to the people and make what is in essence a grassroots
movement is really brilliant, you know. It’s really the
best approach, I would think. So I just want to say thank you
from all of us for doing that, both you, Wade Frazier, and
Have you guys known each other for a long time?
WF: Well, I
met Brian in ’91 when I had
to pick him up at the airport for a New Science conference.
We drove right past Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and made
jokes about Hangar 18, the Blue Room, and stuff, and so that’s
when I met Brian. And then when he published Miracle in
the Void in ’96, I bought about thirty-five copies
Anyway, Brian, it quickly became evident to me... I’d
already been through my salad days on the free energy front
when I met Brian, and it became very clear that Brian was hip.
We’ve had interactions
over the years and he invited
me to be on the New
Energy Movement board back in 2003. We’re
living on different continents right now, but as much as I
can help Brian do what he does, I’m honored to do it.
BO’L: I feel the same way about
you, Wade, that some of your insight, and our journeys in parallel
and together, that our interactions have been very important
and that there’s
been a lot of learning on my part from you, in giving this
a broader context than just vetting this or that new energy
concept, which people still ask me for. They still come to
me and say: "Hey what do you think of this? What do you
think of the air car? What do you think of this sonoluminescence
device?" I’ve now gone away from that.
I’m more interested in combining politics with these
concepts and also observing. Because I think, Wade, you helped
radicalize me in some of the writings of Noam
Chomsky and Ed Herman and so forth, that these are the kinds of guys that
you would think could awaken to this, but no, they haven’t.
And the same thing goes for Richard Heinberg.
So we keep trying to tell them: "Well,
what about the possibility of this?" And now and then
you’ll get this scathing
response from the likes of Heinberg or Mike
some other people that you’d think would embrace these
things, but somehow are still very much in denial.
So it is a lonely road. And the people
that I think will be taking the lead here will be brand new
people, people that will come forward. And maybe this economic
crisis is now providing a greater opportunity - it’s
my hope anyway - for us to develop a new kind of leadership,
systemically, and really start from scratch, and to make a
change we can believe in [laughs] not let it just be empty
slogans that respond to Wall Street and the military-industrial
complex, which in turn responds to higher forces that are somehow
suppressing these possibilities.
KC: Thank you, Brian. That’s wonderful. What I’d
like to do is bring back Bill here. But I also wanted to ask
both of you if you could respond to what is it you think when
you see things like, you know, the Space Shuttle and the Space
Station and the way they’re dealing with this? What in
essence is sending a tin can up into the air, you know? [laughs]
I mean, what do you think when you see that they’re creating
a new technology, supposedly planning to go to Mars and Moon?
There’s a new mission underway. But what do you think
about the technology they’re going to use to do these
things, the fact that they’re still relying on this old
BO’L: You know, for one, I think that we’re
living in the past. We’re living with past models that
are falling apart. Ever since the Space Shuttle was first proposed
I realized that NASA was falling apart because it was a bureaucratic
invention, kind of a miasma. And the same with the Space Station,
sort of a “Tinker-Toys” designed
by aerospace companies to line their pockets.
Right now the technologies we’re using
are drastically old. They’re simply not worthwhile. They’re
in the past. It’s expensive. It pollutes the atmosphere.
The Shuttle itself contributes to the hole in the ozone layer.
Every launch is something like ten-to-fifteen billion dollars.
We can’t afford that kind of stuff.
KC: What do you think about the fact that they’re
planning to power the new missions using nuclear?
BO’L: Ah! That’s disaster! You know, if
you get me going on nuclear... I was the nuclear energy advisor
to Morris Udall’s Energy and Environment subcommittee
of the US congress, and our committee pretty single-handedly
stopped nuclear power in its tracks.
Any kind of nuclear technology, for anybody that looks at
it, is highly dangerous. The long-lived radioactive waste products...
we haven’t found a way to bury them. They have half-lives
of tens of thousands of years. We’re polluting the Earth
for our children and their children and for all of nature.
We’ve got tolet go of that technology
one hundred percent. For nuclear technology to be used in any
space application or any application on the Earth is yet another
It’s sort of like right now humans are terror-forming the
Earth with various geo-engineering projects, whether it’s
the development of nuclear technology, or chemtrails, or depleted
uranium. These are all horrible, horrible projects.
And you see, we need to develop a new kind of advocacy, a
new combination of truth movements that look at all of these
things -- 9/11, the official story -- to kind of “pop
a bubble” of the sacred myths of our time and to proceed
onward with the kinds of new technologies that are clean and
cheap, like free energy. We just have to do this! And people
have to awaken. And right now, there aren’t very many
of us that advocate that.
So to the degree your listeners can begin to embrace these
things and to make the leap of faith, if you will, before really
finding out in great detail that a number of myths need to
be destroyed, we need some sort of process of truth and reconciliation.
We need to radically change our systems, and Obama is now about
.00001 percent of the way in doing any of that.
So it is disappointing, but we just keep having to prevail
and get to the truth, which is always the first step toward
realizing what we need to do.
KC: Wade, what would you say about the fact that,
you know, free energy exists? It’s been out there for,
I don’t know, since at least the 1950s, wouldn’t
you say? And yet they’re planning on powering the next
mission to Mars and the Moon using nuclear fuel.
WF: [laughs] Well you know, Brian is the astronaut [Kerry
laughs] so I definitely defer to Brian’s opinion on those
things. But it’s a thing where...
WF: Actually, what Brian was just discussing,
I have a short anecdote, which was: Dennis and I spoke at Department
of Energy hearings back in 1997 when they were trying to do
the, what’s called the
WIPP, which was
the low-intensity nuclear waste, not the place in Nevada where
they still... it’s not even big enough to hold what they
It was the thing where we approached them with neutralization
technology to make nuclear waste, I mean, to neutralize it.
And we were using Brown’s Gas. Long story there. But
anyway, interestingly, we spoke there and we were located right
next to this Savannah facility, like on Atomic Boulevard.
and I spoke at a couple of hearings that day.
And the interesting thing was that the most excited person
at the hearing was the person who organized it. And at the
lunch break, he actually follows us out to the car and gives
us his card and stuff. And he said that we were the third group
that attended these hearings to present a neutralization technology.
And he said, and I’ll never forget this,
he said: "The people managing nuclear waste stand
to make a ton of money doing this. If your answer doesn’t
make them a ton of money, it won’t go anywhere." And
then he said: "I’m an underling
with no power, but I’ll see what I can do."
[laughs] And of course nothing happened.
Anyway, so to me, yes, as Brian said, actually
using nuclear fission to actually power these missions and
stuff -- it’s
nightmarish. It’s totally nightmarish. In fact, when
I know that other, [laughs] totally clean, benign technologies
exist and we’re using this, you know -- extremely
primitive. As Einstein said: "Nuclear fission’s
one hell of a way to boil water." So, it’s
just really horrifying. It’s actually horrifying that
we’re doing these things.
KC: OK. Thank you so much, both of you
guys, because that’s great to hear you say that and of
course to hear an astronaut talk about the absurdity
of using nuclear fuel to send missions out... and here we are
in 2009. It just kind of boggles the mind. This has to be a
fake, you know, front game, really, for what is really going
on behind the scenes, you have to believe, in terms of NASA
really going on there. But what I’ll do here is... Bill,
can you come forward and sort of ask a few questions yourself?
And I’ll translate if necessary.
BR: [laughs] OK. Thank you. I just want to thank all
of you, actually, because ever since I realized that my British James
Bond shaken-but-not-stirred accent wasn’t totally
understandable there, I’ve been sitting in the front
row of this audience, hugely enjoying this conversation. And
I want to thank you very much for that. And, Kerry, thanks
a lot for stepping into the MC’s shoes here, because
I know that you hadn’t prepared yourself quite as much
for this interview as I had by reading Wade’s voluminous
1200-page website that I invite anyone to take a lucky dip
into because it is encyclopedic.
Brian has already answered the final question that I wanted
to put to you both, which was what changes does he really hope
to see in his lifetime?
And what I would like to do is just to ask Wade briefly...
if you can say something to that, that would inspire any young
activists, because they are out there. We hear from them regularly,
people who are on a steep learning curve, and a lot of energy,
and who haven’t yet had that energy blunted. We know
that they’re out there, and those people will find a
way to listen to this conversation because it’s going
to be very important to them.
And the opportunity here is to leave those people with something
that will inspire and encourage them to pick up the torch which
you two have both been carrying, and of course many others
have been carrying this torch as well. What can you leave these
young warriors with, to help them continue with what you’ve
considered your life’s work to be?
WF: Well thank you. What my message would
be is this: "You
are not pursuing something ephemeral. You’re pursuing
things that are very real." OK? These are very
real. This stuff’s real. It’s not a fantasy.
not some crazy conspiracy theory. This is very real stuff.
And the potential of this is something that none of us can
really fathom. We really can’t fathom what the potential
of something like this is. And so, I don’t know...
I mean, I don’t know... to me that seems worthwhile!
KC: You know, Wade, your life itself and also Brian’s
life, both of you are an inspiration in itself. I mean, your
actual life experience - and sharing that - is very powerful.
And I’m very happy that Bill was scientifically astute
enough to be able to target and find you out because you’re
not really in the mainstream at the moment. But you’re
obviously a person that deserves great respect, as does Brian.
And it’s really lovely to hear you speak about your background
and all, so I just want to thank you very much, both of you.
BR: I think this has been an excellent conversation.
I want to thank you both for your time and your commitment.
It’s a long rough road, I think, that you two guys have
been on, and by speaking out so energetically and positively,
I think that you will have done a lot to encourage an interest
and enlighten some of these young activists who we know will
be watching this -- because this torch must be picked
up. It’s a torch that must grow more
and more brightly.
I’m convinced now, Wade, having read a lot of your site,
that free energy is such a huge issue, and also I should say
having read several of Brian’s books as well. It goes
everywhere. It goes into the environment. It goes into the
economy. It goes into politics. It goes into control agendas.
It goes into every aspect of society that we know about. This
is why it’s really at the heart of everything, and of
course this is why the activists do get stomped on so hard.
But you’re still standing! And we acknowledge and salute
you for that and thank you very much indeed for your inspiration
to everyone who will be listening to this.
BO’L: Thank you, Bill.
WF: Thank you, Bill. And thank you for what you and
Kerry are doing. It’s important work. Thanks for being
here for the audio