Dr Brian O'Leary : The Energy Solution Revolution
Vilcabamba, Ecuador, January 2009
Start of Interview
Kerry Cassidy (KC): Hi. I’m Kerry Cassidy from Project
Camelot, and we’re here with Dr. Brian O’Leary.
He’s a lecturer, scientist, ex-astronaut, and we’re
very pleased to be with him today. And we’re here in
beautiful Ecuador at Montesuenos, which is your retreat, I
think you want to call it. What we want to do is kind of get
into your background.
Dr. Brian O’Leary (BO’L): Yes. I’m
afraid that at my ripe old age of 69 that my background has
been pretty eclectic and it’s kind of hard to pin me
down, like, you know: Who is this guy?
But it all started back when I was a little kid and I wanted
to go into space. I wanted to go to the Moon. I wanted to go
to Mars, and there was no space program then. And then, somewhat
ironically, I got involved in the Apollo Program, twelve years
after I wanted to go into space and nobody thought there would
ever be a space program.
This was back in the late ’40s, early ’50s. But
when Sputnik went up, then the whole world changed. And it
was also around then that there was more awareness of the UFO
phenomenon, paranormal phenomena.
And so, what happened with me was that I went on one track,
which was a very ambitious career which was actually quite
fulfilled, because I became an astronaut after getting my PhD
in astronomy at Berkeley.
And then I got involved in planetary exploration, some of
the Mariner programs. I taught with Carl Sagan at Cornell University
and did research on planetary science.
Then I went to Washington, became an advisor to various political
leaders, various presidential candidates.
I was kind of like an “academic drifter” in many
ways. Even though on paper I was successful, I would be kind
of hopping from university to university, and this, I think,
helped prepare the way for the later half of my life, which
was really quite different from the first half.
The first half was more traditional, more being a physicist
who was very familiar with, for example, energy and environment
issues, having advised Congress and having taught courses on
I was also aware of atmospheric science and some of the things
that were ahead for the Earth which are now very familiar,
such as global warming, global climate change, and a number
of other human-related catastrophes that are happening on the
So, in a sense, my own straight academic background was a
good one, good preparation for studying energy policy: What
kind of choices do we really have in the energy crisis? But
also: To what degree are humans interfering with the Earth?
And so, the second half of my life, if you will: After I was
in the physics department at Princeton in 1979, I started to
have some unusual experiences -- remote viewing experiences,
a near-death experience, various healing experiences then that
opened Pandora’s Box up.
I was at that time in the physics department at Princeton.
My colleagues, many of them Nobel Laureates, all men,
thought I was crazy to embrace paranormal phenomena.
Then later I got into the UFO phenomena. I led a number of
scientific groups to get together to try to disclose the research
that was going on.
And it was around that time I began to get in touch with all
the “Black Projects”, not from the inside, but
from the outside, kind of peering in and seeing what was happening,
that there’s been this massive cover-up.
Well, one thing led to another. I spent a number of years
after I left Princeton -- and now we’re getting into
the ’80s -- of exploring various things like the “Face”on
Mars, NASA’s cover-up of that, and looking further at
the UFO phenomena.
I published a number of books, a trilogy, basically, in which
I kind of review the state of the art of “new science”,
So we have, for example… In this book [Exploring
Inner and Outer Space] I talk about the state of the
art of UFO research, but I also talk about consciousness,
the mind-over-matter interaction, the fact that exploring
outer space and exploring inner space can lead to all sorts
of new paradigms of reality.
Then, in The Second Coming of Science, this book
here, I did some very careful studies that replicated the work
of many pioneers of new science -- people such as Marcel Vogel.
I would go and visit various miracle-makers, like Sai Baba,
and saw him materialize things. I went all over the world.
I went to Brazil to visit Thomaz Green Morton, a very gifted
Then I began to get more interested in the environment. At
that point I published Miracle in the Void, which
was a photo-journalistic look at some of the best and brightest
free energy researchers all over the world -- India, Japan,
and so forth.
I began to realize that we could solve our energy
problem really quite quickly if we only embrace these technologies.
However, they’ve been suppressed, and sometimes violently
So in this book, Miracle in the Void, which was really
a collaboration with my wife Meredith, an artist… she
was painting her masterpiece, The Last Supper of Gaia, while
I was writing this book…
And what I discovered was that paradigm shifts are more a
social / political phenomenon than a technological question,
that it goes way beyond the drama of outside researchers coming
up with breakthroughs which then are suppressed.
It has to do with creating whole new structures
which are unsupported by the larger culture.
In fact, what’s happening now on the planet is that
we are grieving the loss of Mother Earth. And even though this
is a subconscious thing, what happens is that, according to
the work of Elisabeth Kubler-Ross, we go through various phases
of grieving -- grieving the loss of our mother planet.
So Meredith and I became avid environmentalists. What I attempted
to do then -- and now we’re talking the middle 1990s
-- was to examine what psychological effects come through each
of us as we begin to embrace the new paradigm.
Meredith and I collaborated on this project. What we were
able to identify -- and this is based on the work of Elisabeth
Kubler-Ross, On Death and Dying -- is that we’ve
all grieving the loss of Mother Earth. By all I mean
those of us that are sensitive and aware of the problems that
are unfolding on the planet.
What Meredith and I figured out was that many of us are in
denial -- most of us -- about the severity of the problems,
such as global climate change, such as the possibility of nuclear
war, the war in Iraq, and so forth and so on… that these
things fly in the face of what we really need to be
doing, which is developing clean energy, making sure we have
clean water, having an international system of justice, depending
more and more on local resources, local rule, and…
But anyway, most people are in denial about everything,
including the UFO phenomenon and free energy, which are two
of my favorite topics, both of which I’ve found, for
myself, are very free.
So then we go from denial on to anger: The truth’ll
set you free, but first it will piss you off.
Then we go into bargaining: How can we fit the new within
the context of the old?
A lot of people were stimulated by Barack Obama’s comments
about how we need change. Well, the kind of change
that would be implemented there is what I call incremental change,
tiny little things.
And then, meanwhile, the progressives that are trying to nip
on his heels are saying: Well, we need structural change.
We need to go back to the Constitution. We need to have a kind
of Rooseveltian New Deal and Keynesian economy. We need something
that is like going back to a point of reference, like the Roosevelt
or Clinton administration.
And that’s not going to work. So when none of these
things work, then, according to the work of Elisabeth Kubler-Ross,
then we go into depression.
A lot of people are depressed. I’ve noticed this. A
lot of people, especially in the US, they’re just not
very happy with what’s going on. That happens also when
people lose their loved ones. They get depressed after denial,
anger, and bargaining, and then, finally people get into acceptance.
The point here is that the Earth is getting ruined by human
intervention. I mean, it’s so obvious.
And we need to seek the truth. So, part of what I did was
publish a book called Re-Inheriting the Earth, which
was awakening to sustainable solutions, and many of them lie
far outside the box of conventional thinking.
That’s why I’m so interested in the free energy
question, very interested in some of the questions of ways
of purifying water in ways that have not been acknowledged
I’m very interested in the phenomena of consciousness,
how Combined Positive Human Intention can really and truly
change the material world. These are ideas, now, that are proven
by quantum physics, and paranormal phenomena.
And so, this whole array of solutions -- in principle -- could
work, if only we can change the system. Only if we
could change our governance, our public awareness, and education.
So, that’s what I’ve been all about in the last
few years. My most recent book is called The Energy Solution
Revolution, which is based on my 20 years of experience
at examining the proofs-of-concept of free energy devices.
By free energy I mean… Free energy is
sometimes a funny word. Maybe we could use the word solution
These represent quantum-leap breakthroughs from what we now
know. It’s going way beyond solar and wind in term of
It’s actually… It’s sort of analogous to “The
Information Age.” Who would have ever imagined that computers
and internet would have existed, even 20 years ago? It was
only a small number of people who foresaw that.
What I foresee, along with many colleagues who’ve been
suppressed, is that we can have a free energy, or a solution
energy, culture in the world.
By solution energy I mean vacuum energy -- energy
from the vacuum of space -- which is well known to the yogis,
that everywhere has enormous amounts of potential
energy, if we can only tap into it. And there are ways of tapping
So, some of my world travels, and the work of my colleagues,
and various professional organizations, has proven beyond
any reasonable doubt that these forms of energy are unprecedented.
They do exist. The Wright brothers have already flown on this
one. We’re just not making practical use.
The reason why we’re not making practical use of these
energy sources is because they are suppressed. Actively.
The people that work on these things are threatened, assassinated.
And manipulated. Bought off. When somebody gets near realization,
that’s when the big boys go in, and this has happened
again and again and again.
So, that’s a very important part of the awareness training
of the general public. It’s also part of the very important
work that Project Camelot is doing, which is to interview
many people formerly on the inside, maybe still on the inside.
I’ve never been on the inside, but I sure know how the
inside works, and what their agenda is, and their motivations,
which flies in the face of development, potential development,
of free energy.
And we all know also, and many people don’t quite understand
it is: Well, if it’s real, then we’d have it
by now… just go down to K-Mart and get my little solid-state
power-pack. And we can go off the grid system. Everything
is clean. Everybody’s happy.
But it doesn’t quite work out that way. It takes money
and time to develop it. So we need an Apollo Program for new
energy -- new energy meaning vacuum energy, cold fusion,
advanced hydrogen and water technologies.
There’s quite a long list of technologies, any one of
which would do it. But it’s going to take effort to develop
these energy sources.
So, in The Energy Solution Revolution, I address
less the technical issues, because the internet and the general
literature’s just full of information on the technologies
themselves. But instead, I’ve looked at the political
and social questions, and the educational questions.
You know: Why is it that otherwise intelligent people
would not embrace this possibility, if it’s going to solve
the energy problem? And, of course, people don’t
do it for a number of reasons. There’ve been a number
of studies done. It’s really a social science question
as to why there’s such resistance to this change.
Bertrand Russell one time said: The resistance to a new
idea increases as the square of its importance.
If we’re talking about supplanting a four-billion-dollar
energy industry, highly polluting, with a clean energy that’s
cheap and decentralized, then we’re talking about a paradigm
shift, and The Powers That Be don’t want that to happen.
KC: OK. Brian, that’s a wonderful summary of everything
you’ve been involved in over the past few years. What
I’d like to do is actually go back in time and get something
about, kind of, the things that triggered you to become the
man you are today.
Because clearly you’ve had a huge sort of arc, learning
curve, whatever you want to call it, in which you’ve
really traversed quite a gamut of things and concepts. And
actually, as a scientist, you’ve moved quite a distance
from being sort of a hands-on scientist, I guess, that is conventionally
thought of as a scientist.
You’ve actually become something of an innovative thinker,
and even maybe, loosely, a philosopher. But you’ve never
lost sight of the science. So, at this point you’re really
an interesting combination of these things.
And so, what I’d like to do is talk about your background
as an astronaut. You were preparing to go to Mars, I understand.
KC: And yet you never went. If you could tell me a little
bit about what was going in your head back then, when you were… what
do you say… in the astronaut program. Where were you
at, you know, psychologically? So that we can kind of get the
arc of the change. Because I think that would be fascinating
BO’L: Yes, Kerry. Yes. That’s a good question,
and a complex one. But I think from a very early age I always… I’ve
always been a visionary; I’ve thought outside the box.
When I was a little kid I was drawing rockets and wanted to
go to the Moon. Even my high school yearbook says under my
name: He wants to go to the Moon. And people were
laughing. [Kerry laughs] This was before Sputnik!
BO’L: Everybody thought I was crazy.
BO’L: Then I majored in physics. I didn’t
enjoy it. It was kind of dry, but I realized that I’d
better know some of that stuff if I wanted to go to the Moon.
And then, as luck would have it, of course, John F. Kennedy
in 1961 set the lunar landing goal, and I got very enthused.
I was in graduate school at the time.
A few years later I got my PhD at Berkeley in astronomy and
planetary science. So I had really prepped myself to go to
Mars because my PhD thesis was about Mars.
And indeed, I was selected to go to Mars. I was even asked
by the selection committee in my interview: Would you be
willing to submit to a hazardous two-year journey to Mars? And
I said: Fine. I don’t know whether my wife would
like it, but I want to go.
I was gung ho. I had a crew cut. It was very different from
the way things are for me now. It was later I became a hippy,
sort of, you know… an alternative thinker, shall we
But I think all of this was inbred in me. I’d always
had problems with authority. I always had problems with rules.
That’s one reason why I’d go from university to
university. I was recognized more for mediocrity and doing
research on tiny little specialties. I was well rewarded when
But when I had some visionary idea, such as space colonies,
or mining the asteroids for their raw materials, people would
scratch their heads and say: Well, this guy isn’t
quite with it. [Kerry laughs] One colleague said: Brian,
don’t have such an open mind that your brains will spill
out. And it was only later, though, that…
You see, I was still in the materialistic paradigm. I was
still assuming that anything and everything could be explained
in terms of matter, and in terms of reductionism,
and everything made up of little atoms.
KC: Right. The normal scientific paradigm.
KC: So what happened to take you from the astronaut
program to actually being a professor? I understand you were
tapped, but you also sort of left the astronaut program. So
how did that happen?
BO’L: Well, I left the astronaut program because
they cancelled the Mars program, and I felt that… And
we knew that the Space Shuttle was coming along, but the wait
for that would have to be at least 15 years.
We also had to fly high-performance jets. I calculated that
I’d have a one-in-five chance of being killed in a jet
accident -- which is both Air Force and astronaut statistics
-- even before I got to see a space flight, and it would just
be into Earth orbit in the Space Shuttle. So I decided right
then and there to quit, and…
But there was an additional reason, and that is that the reason
why NASA had canceled the Mars mission was because we were
getting involved in Vietnam. So I really got pretty angry about
the Vietnam War, for me personally as well as for the whole
country, the whole world, and so I became a leading war protestor.
Carl Sagan called me from Cornell and asked me to join the
faculty. I accepted the offer and spent many years at Cornell
in the astronomy department, planetary science department.
And I became very creative in research then, but still within
the bounds of western science, but in the planetary exploration
program. That was for a period of about a decade.
Then, after that, I got more politically involved and I advised
a number of presidential candidates -- George McGovern, Morris
Udall. I worked for Udall. I was his energy advisor when he
ran for president. He was a very environmental congressman.
I advised Jesse Jackson on converting the huge aerospace capability
we have to peaceful purposes, like developing solution energy
and other programs that would be of use to the public and not
to just this hungry elite.
It was around then that I really became rebellious. I went
from university to university and I never was satisfied.
KC: But isn’t there a time in which you and Carl
Sagan sort of had a falling-out, or a distancing? Can you describe
what happened there?
BO’L: Yes. Well, for one thing, Carl was very
angry I left Cornell when I did. It was… One very cold
snowy day in May, I landed in Syracuse, and there was a horizontal
blizzard -- in May -- and I said: That’s it for upstate
New York. And Carl thought that was very frivolous. Because,
of course, he was kind of an empire-builder kind of guy; and
he also had a huge ego.
It was only later, when I began to embrace the UFO phenomenon
and the cover-up, studying all these organizations that were
covering up, and having some direct experience, myself, as
a researcher no longer beholden to funding from NASA or the
university environment, that I began to double-check some of
I saw, for example, the famous “Face” in Cydonia
on Mars, photographed by Viking in 1975, which shows this gigantic
mesa that resembles a human face, about a mile across. Carl
and I debated this.
It was very, very disappointing to me, because not only was
Carl wrong, he also fudged data. He published a picture of
the “Face” in Parade Magazine, a popular
article, saying that the “Face” was just a natural
formation, but he doctored the picture to make it not look
like a face.
I began to realize, just directly from the scientific point
of view, not only hearsay, that this man was colluding with
NASA, that there might be more to this than before. And then,
when I started studying things like MJ12 and other organizations
that were covering up the UFO phenomenon…
Carl was on a committee with a number of notable people. There
was a report issued by the Brookings Institution in 1961 --
and that’s about when I knew Carl, during those years;
the ’60s mostly was when I worked closely with him --
that he and this other group said: Well, if any ETs ever
showed up on the Earth, it has to be covered up. That’s
the only way we’re going to be able to manage this, because
if we can’t, then it would be too much of a culture shock.
So their recommendation to the government in 1961 was to cover
up the UFO phenomenon, and I think in a way that provided a
justification for the ongoing cover-up way back in ’61
-- was to keep things secret. And of course they still are.
KC: So, at what point were you… Where did Hoagland
come into this mix? Because once you were talking about the “Face” on
Mars, I have to assume that you had some interaction with Hoagland.
BO’L: Yes. He… Actually, he’s a great
catalyst. He’s very articulate. He’s very bright.
He had some very good ideas. He came to me in about… I
think it was around 1980. It was a few years after the Viking
mission, and I was still involved with the mainstream then.
So Dick Hoagland wanted me -- still being a somewhat mainstream
planetary scientist -- to listen to him, listen to his presentation
about the Cydonia “Face,” and he made a presentation
which I thought was very good.
He asked me to check his work. I thought a great deal of the
work was extremely well done and which I vindicated enough
to say that, Yes. I, too, would like to get into this
research, and then the research started to snowball. So
that was the good news.
The not-so-good news is that he also made a lot of claims
that were certainly not correct. They were scientifically not
well grounded. He was arbitrary in picking some of the points
in the region as control points for various geometric alignments,
which were simply not true. So I also had somewhat of a falling-out
with him because…
You see, most scientists, people trained in science, as a
scientist… In a way I still defend mainstream science
in terms of methodology, that you have to have your work subject
to peer review in order to get it published. And I think that’s
very good. You know, it’s really good to preserve the
So I found myself in this odd middle ground between people
that were outside the system making claims, such as Dick Hoagland
did, some of which are very, very substantial and good, on
the one hand; and on the other hand, using strict scientific
methods to approach these questions.
Eventually some colleagues joined me and a number of us now
have worked together, such as Dr. Mark Carlotto, an imaging
scientist; Professor Stan McDaniel, Chairman of the Philosophy
Department at Sonoma State; Doctor Horace Crater, Professor
of Physics, University of Tennessee; the late Dr. Tom Van Flandern.
These are all mainstream scientists, trained in the mainstream
just like I was, and also open to the questions, such as the “Face” on
So, in a way, it was kind of a roundabout way, because now
that I was out of the mainstream… Because all I have
to do is stick my neck out a little to be totally ostracized
by the mainstream scientific community and that happened around
KC: Was that when you were at Princeton?
KC: OK. So what… because I know there are some
parallels between you and the late John Mack. I know you knew
him, and how he was treated by Harvard. And so, can you talk
a little bit about what happened to you at Princeton?
BO’L: Well, yes. Actually, I think I left before
they threw me out [Kerry laughs] because I saw the handwriting
on the wall. I was in the physics department. All men. Nobel Laureates,
about five or six Nobel Laureates. And every other
Tuesday at the Joseph Henry Luncheons, we would swill a thimbleful
of sherry, and the most common topic of discussion was how
ridiculous claims of the paranormal were.
Meanwhile, I was sneaking off to workshops on the weekends.
I did a Lifespring training. I did a number of other
healing seminars, and so forth. I started to step outside of
the box and I found that they were very wrong. But my colleagues
were also… they had more power than I did at that time.
So I felt the most prudent thing to do was to simply leave,
and that’s what I did.
KC: But how did their antagonism towards you manifest
in that setting?
BO’L: [laughs] Well, for one thing, when I left,
there were no regrets because the word got around that I was
going off half-cocked here, in embracing paranormal phenomena.
They were looking askance anyway because at that time I was
working with Professor Gerard O’Neill on space colonies,
and even those concepts were a bit far-out for the other physicists
there. So it was like a double whammy. And so, in my case,
I left before they could have caused problems. Whereas John
KC: And where did you go? When you say you left, where
were you headed? Did you know where you were headed, or were
you just leaving?
BO’L: No. I just left. I just left.
KC: Oh. Fascinating. Because that’s huge. Wouldn’t
you say that that’s your major break with academia?
KC: From then on you kind of took a trajectory that
actually went like that, in a sense?
BO’L: Yes. Yes. I did… In the interim I
had a near-death experience in an auto accident which prompted
me to go to California. Go west, young man. [laughs]
So I took all my worldly possessions and bought a beat-up old
Ford van and threw it in there and drove to California in 1982.
BO’L: This was just after a near-death experience
I had in an auto accident, which was yet another paranormal
indicator that where I was and what I was doing was not working
KC: When you say you had a near-death experience… You
know, I’m not sure how you feel about that, but is it
possible to convey to us what connected that experience with
the paranormal? Did you actually…meaning, did you die
and see certain things?
BO’L: My near-death experience was during an auto
accident on slick ice that suddenly appeared and fortunately
I was by myself. I did several flips. I was going 65 mph. I
ended up in a ditch, accordion-style.
But my experience of the accident was not of the violence,
but instead, a brilliant light -- first of all, bobbing spheres,
and then a brilliant light that I wanted to become at-one with.
I did become at-one with it.
Then, the next thing I knew, I was sitting in the driver’s
seat, dazed, shocked, and a man was at the window of the car.
He was a professional auto insurance adjustor who had witnessed
the accident, and he said: I’m amazed you’re
alive, let alone uninjured.
And that, to me, was a profound experience, because at that
point I hadn’t studied the paranormal very much. I was
still at Princeton. I was just getting my appetite whetted
about some of these things, about human potential and about
my own experiences. I had remote viewing experiences. I had
the near-death experience. I had healing experiences.
And that was kind of my signpost to leave Princeton and to
just go on my own, and that was a risky thing. I ended up in
California, in LA, looking for a job in the aerospace industry
so I could get my kids through college.
But to do civilian work, I did find a position with Science
Applications which turned out to be a… You know. It’s
one of the “Black Budget Beltway Bandit” groups.
[Kerry laughs] But I didn’t… I wasn’t involved
KC: Is that SAIC?
BO’L: SAIC. Yes.
KC: They’re notorious, actually, for being part
of the black budget.
BO’L: Yes. And I had nothing to do with it. I
refused to do any work for the military, even “peaceful” work,
like satellites to just sense threats, to defend themselves.
I was even offered to do that and I refused to do it.
After four and a half years, just before I got vested in my
retirement plan, they laid me off, and they had good reason
to, too. I didn’t pull in any money! [Kerry laughs] So
it was then -- and now we’re talking 1987 -- that I made
a clean break with the mainstream.
BO’L: I got my kids halfway through college, and
then I got on the metaphysical church circuit, Unity and Religious
Science churches. And that’s how I kind of made a living
for about a decade while I was just metaphysically exploring,
just going into so many modalities of alternative thinking.
What I discovered during that decade of the ’80s into
the ’90s, and that’s what created my books, was
that you could use the methods of science itself to verify,
and to further develop, metaphysical realities.
KC: Mm hm. Yes.
BO’L: And that’s what really fascinated
KC: You can actually use the scientific method to investigate
the occult as well.
BO’L: That’s right. Absolutely.
KC: It’s a great method, regardless of where it’s
applied, in some ways.
Bill Ryan (BR): While you were are Princeton before
that, didn’t you find a kindred spirit in Robert John?
His is a name that many viewers of this video will probably
recognize as being a pioneer, and one of the trail-breaking “scientific
heretics” in the field of paranormal exploration with
the rigorous application of the scientific method. I imagine
that you probably got along with him pretty well.
BO’L: Yes. Absolutely, Bill. I got along with
him very well. But the odd thing about it was that at the time
when he was starting to do his experiments at the Princeton
Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory, Paralabs, he was
doing a lot of the research while I was there, but I didn’t
know what he was doing.
He didn’t know what I was doing, either, because I didn’t
want to share with my colleagues the fact that I was sneaking
off to workshops on weekends, or that I was having paranormal
So we were both in the closet at that point. He didn’t
know what I was doing. I didn’t know what he was doing,
although we were colleagues on various mainstream projects,
such as developing propulsion systems to go to Mars.
His specialty was various advanced propulsion systems for
rockets. He was the chairman, well, actually the Dean of the
School of Engineering at Princeton. I would put on a number
of conferences with Jerry [Gerard] O’Neill on space colonies,
space settlements, and Bob John took part in those.
So I knew him pretty well, but not in this role of paranormal
research. That only happened later, when I visited his laboratory
and did an interview with him for one of my books, The
Second Coming of Science, that our whole relationship
It was around then that I also developed a relationship with
John Mack as I was learning more and more about the UFO phenomenon
and some of the more verifiable aspects of its reality.
So, in a way, I’ve had a ball in my life because I was
able to be very independent. I didn’t have to depend
on anybody for career purposes. I didn’t get paid very
much. I was, you know, living very simply for a period of 20
or 30 years… still do in a sense because, you know,
we just do things a little differently.
The point is that for, I would say now almost 30 years, I
haven’t had to be beholden to anybody to approve what
KC: That’s incredible.
BO’L: But on the other hand, that can create problems,
too, and it did.
BO’L: When Black Ops tried to recruit me once
and I refused, there were consequences and they were very serious.
But without sharing exactly what they were, suffice it to say
that I began to realize that at that time, and I’m talking
20 or so years ago, I was pretty naïve. I was wanting
to do all kinds of things like organize conferences, get researchers
together to speak in a unified way about various issues. But
that was not well appreciated by The Powers That Be.
KC: I want to get into that because that’s a really
interesting part of your history. But before we do that, you
did say you got to know John Mack? I think he was a friend
KC: …and I was curious, did he ever, I don’t
know, regress you? Did you have what he would consider a contact
BO’L: Not to my knowledge. I didn’t have
that kind of relationship with him. The relationship was more
When I was really heavy into UFO research during the 1990s,
I was attempting to piece together the best information that
was scientifically most grounded and also found out: Well,
what is the contact experience telling us? This led on
his part and my part to have a profound sense of colleagueship
and deep concern about the fate of the Earth, the fate of our
culture, because the environmental problems are so severe.
KC: And that’s because the contactees were coming
back with this message, basically, kind of almost across the
board. Is that right?
BO’L: That’s correct. His book, Passport
to the Cosmos, which was his latest book before his
untimely death, was really an account of that. The most common
denominator of the contact experience was that the visitors
were telling us, and doing graphic, emotionally-charged images
of what the Earth would look like if we keep doing things
the way we’re doing them.
And so, John came to this issue from the point of view of
abduction research. I came to it from the point of view of
just looking at the numbers, at just how the state of the world
is just miserable, that we’ve got not that much longer
before tipping points will destabilize climate, and all sorts
That’s even setting aside the possibility of nuclear
war, of bankrupt… well, everything is getting bankrupt
now anyway. I mean, it’s disaster ahead unless we change
John kind of saw the light. Robert John at Princeton saw the
light. And little by little, you see, as scientists, we as
colleagues came together. But it took a long time -- we’ve
been divided and ruled.
KC: Would you say that in some ways you kind of became
a figure, or a central person, around which a lot of these
people could come together? On the one hand, the UFO researchers
-- I know that you started setting up conferences. You would
bring them in. But on the other hand you were actually bringing
scientists to the table, such as John Mack and Robert John.
BO’L: That’s correct. I co-founded an organization
called the International Association for New Science and we
had annual conferences between about 1989 and 1999. The other
co-founder, God rest his soul, Maury [Maurice] Albertson, who
was a professor of civil engineering at Colorado State, he
and I and one other fellow basically founded it.
We had conferences, and we’d convene people in various
disciplines in what we would call “new science”,
which would include free energy, UFO research, paranormal research,
We’d bring in some of the best scientists in those fields
and we’d create a collegiality and also do a public program
of lectures that would then pay for the travel of the people.
We kind of worked on a shoestring budget. I’m sure you’re
familiar with that one. [Kerry laughs] But there was a lot
of ambition and motivation.
Maury just passed over, but at the ripe age of about 90. So
he’s one of my heroes. A lot of my heroes have passed
over, and some of them more recently than others, so it’s
kind of like a lonely business sometimes.
KC: So it was during the time when you were putting
these conferences together that you actually felt there was
a hit on you from the secret government, if you will. Is that
correct? I mean, I’m not sure how you would term it.
BO’L: Well, yes. [hesitantly] Let’s say
that I’ve had a situation that was threatening to me
and it was as a result of some of my work. And also it’s
happened to many of my colleagues as well, so that my efforts
to unify, organize, scientists to express freely was, like
a lot of other researchers, was considered not so good.
KC: But at that point… I understand that was
sort of one more brick in the wall at that point, but you didn’t
actually stop doing that, stop doing the conferences because
of that, did you?
BO’L: No. I kept going.
KC: Mm hm.
BO’L: I kept going and I’ve lived to tell
the story, and I’m very grateful for that.
KC: That was through the ’90s.
BO’L: Mm hm.
KC: OK. And at some point you also got involved with
Mallove. Is that right?
BO’L: That’s right. Eugene Mallove was… just
kind of to tell you the story briefly… was the chief
science writer for MIT. He had a doctorate in education and
was a brilliant writer.
In 1989 Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, two chemists
from the University of Utah, claimed that they’d made
a breakthrough called cold fusion in which, when they
put a palladium cathode into a solution of heavy water, that,
strangely enough, nuclear reactions would occur on the cathode
to create helium and the release of thermal energy which was
It was basically room-temperature fusion, which is quite different
from the traditional definition of fusion, which is to simulate
the hydrogen bomb, and build these enormous reactors called Tokomacs
-- they cost tens of millions of dollars -- and would attempt
to confine a plasma of hot hydrogen so that they can fuse together
to release that thermal energy for generating electricity.
Sort of like nuclear power, fission power, except it’s
fusion, and it’s even more powerful.
And so what went on was this kind of philosophical falling-out.
It was this typical “scientific heresy” type of
thing where the hot fusion physicists, which pretty much controlled
the Department of Energy at MIT and Caltech and places like
that, immediately banded together and they tried to discredit
So, Gene Mallove took an interest in this issue, and he at
first had the prejudice just like we all do, I think, on the
side of caution. [He] felt that: Yes, these guys at the
University of Utah are probably crazy, and he would join
the physicists at MIT and write a story about just what bunk
and poppycock this cold fusion breakthrough was.
What Mallove found out, much to his surprise, was that the
hot fusion scientists at MIT who tried to replicate the experiment… First
of all, they didn’t know the science. They weren’t
chemists. They were nuclear physicists, very different field.
The point is that Mallove found that the MIT hot fusion physicists
were fudging their data to make it look like it wasn’t
there, whereas as in fact the data showed it was there. Their
discovery was vindicated.
So this led Mallove to write an article that was like an
expose on this, whereupon he was fired [laughs] from MIT. And
then he started Infinite Energy Magazine and became
a leading organizer of scientists and advocate of… at
first it was cold fusion, then he expanded his repertoire to
vacuum energy and various forms of advanced hydrogen energy.
KC: And you used to write articles for his publication?
Is that right?
BO’L: Yes. See, he started a magazine called Infinite
Energy. Yes. Excellent magazine. I think it will go
into history as one of the seminal, breakthrough publications
of all time.
He would write scathing editorials about how the scientific
community is stuck in the mud about questions like free energy,
and he, I’m sure, rattled a lot of cages in his work.
And then, of course, the rest is history. In 2004 some thieves
broke into his house and brutally murdered him. We don’t
know the exact cause, but I think we know the motive. It’s
just too much of a coincidence, because he rattled a lot of
cages. His loss was a great loss for me. He was one of my heroes.
KC: Mm hm.
BO’L: So when you see heroes living in your time,
and people with whom you have a close connection, and they’re
suddenly dead, it does cause concern.
KC: And it was at that point -- because we’re
in Ecuador right now -- that I understand that you decided
to actually leave the States.
BO’L: Well, it was one of the reasons. Yes. One
of the reasons was just to “retire,” just to, you
know, live out our lives in peace and harmony but still do
my work, you know, write books and give lectures and organize
conferences. And that I intend to continue doing.
But I’m really very glad to be here. It’s so very
peaceful. And, you know, I just hope that together we can create
a bright new future that has an opportunity to move ahead.
I think that’s one of my bottom-line messages now, is
that people need to become more aware because logic alone,
common sense alone, says we should leave no stone unturned
in seeking clean energy sources for our future.
We should leave no stone unturned in our investigation of
the ET phenomenon because there’s a lot we can learn
There’s a lot we can do in the future to redirect us
instead of having this to be the sole territory of black budgets
and people who want to cover up things -- but the general public
is not aware of this.
KC: Mm hm.
BO’L: They’re not aware that free energy,
or solution energy, could be the Holy Grail of our time. And
that’s where the Camelot theme comes in.
BO’L: It’s the search for the Holy Grail.
Well, the Holy Grail has been found. [Kerry laughs]
It’s just that most people don’t realize that.
KC: OK. Well, so you seem to be like such an enigma,
in a sense, because you were trained in the astronaut program.
And then you went through academia, and you had to be highly
rewarded during that time. Yet you still thought outside the
box and you still made all these adventurous changes in your
life. And then, here you are in Ecuador. Even that takes a
great deal of courage, to leave everything you know and start
a new life.
And this has got to be like a slap in the face of the military
/ industrial complex, that here you are, you’ve become
this incredible rebel, and yet you have all these degrees,
and so on.
I know there was an issue where they tried to actually bury
your background as an ex-astronaut, which is unbelievable.
I know that there actually has been some attempt to change
the definition of what an ex-astronaut or an astronaut
candidate is so that they could actually wipe your record
I think you’ve had more than one experience in this
way. And there are certainly many people out there that have
had similar things happen to them, especially when they’re
rebels, free thinkers, people that are going outside the box
of the old paradigm. So if you could talk a little bit about
what happened to you?
BO’L: Yes, Kerry. Well, I was appointed to the
astronaut program in 1967, and my title then was astronaut.
I even have hanging on the wall here… I don’t
have the accurate date, but I’d say roughly around 1990
it came to my attention…
Well, I’ll backtrack a little bit. A reporter from the San
Diego Union Tribune interviewed me after I gave a talk
in San Diego. Part of my credentials said “ex-astronaut”.
And one of the people on the board of the San Diego Union
Tribune was Wally Schirra, one of the original seven
Mercury astronauts who, unbeknownst to me, formed what was
called The Society for Space Explorers, in which the term astronaut was
redefined to “anybody that went 50 miles above the
So in a way I was defrocked when Schirra hit the ceiling,
and apparently the reporter lost his position… just
like the first reporter that covered the first Wright brothers’ flight
was fired from his position by his editor for not believing
that heavier-than-air flight was possible. So this is just,
once again, a reporter was fired for using the “wrong” credential.
Well, I found that out.
And then shortly after that, an organization with which I
worked some, MUFON, the Mutual UFO Network in the US, also
it came to their attention that maybe in fact I was not an
astronaut. [Kerry laughs] So they wrote to NASA, and NASA said: Well
in fact he wasn’t.
KC: They said you were NOT.
BO’L: I was not.
KC: They actually wrote to NASA?
BO’L: Well, I think so. I’m not absolutely
sure of the details, but I can tell you who would know is Bob
Bletchman, who was the lawyer for MUFON at the time.
KC: Uh huh.
BO’L: Anyway, Bob Bletchman wrote me, and it was
kind of a challenging letter that basically said: Many
of us feel that you misrepresented your credentials. So
I presented my credentials to Bob Bletchman and he became convinced
that, indeed, that was my title at the time, and that indeed
it was appropriate to use that in my credentials.
BO’L: Not that I used it all the time because,
actually, I wouldn’t, because I was trying to get away
from that controversy. And, you know, there’s much more
about me besides being an ex-astronaut that’s kind of
interesting anyway. [laughter]
So it didn’t matter to me too much one way or the other.
But I got vindicated because MUFON challenged me in public
and then later vindicated me, that indeed I was an astronaut.
So that was cleared up.
Now, on another occasion: For a year I had a visiting faculty
appointment at Caltech during the Mariner 10 mission in which
I was deputy team leader of the Television Imaging Science
Team for Mariner 10 that went by Venus and Mercury during the
Professor Bruce Murray, who later became the director of JPL,
appointed me deputy team leader during that time. I was at
Caltech and worked on the mission with him and some of the
So, fast-forward to the year 2000 and a very bright senior
honors physics student who knew that I was researching solution
energies such as cold fusion and so forth said: Gee, you
ought to come to Caltech. Would you like to speak at our Commencement
as a speaker for Alternative Future Science such as cold fusion? And
I said I would be happy to.
So they scheduled it. They started posting things and advertising
the event. Then this one professor that I had worked for, who
later became director of JPL, apparently actively tried to
suppress the entire gig.
And then it turned out that there was no record that I was
even at… Caltech denied that I was deputy team leader,
denied that I was even at Caltech. [Kerry laughs] But it was
so simple because I’d published papers, well, in Science and
other journals, and Caltech was the affiliation that was under
KC: And not only that, you had to have colleagues who
remember you, you know, who are still there even, I’m
BO’L: Exactly. Yes, absolutely.
KC: So it’s an amazing thing.
BO’L: Amazing thing. They tried to erase it and
I thought: Gee, maybe I could find some paycheck stubs
or something like that. Because apparently I was wiped
off the Caltech records that I was even there -- even in their
Administration -- because I tried to follow that one up.
KC: So if somebody was doing an article on you and wanted
to investigate and called Caltech today, they will say that
you never worked there.
BO’L: Yes. [laughs]
KC: It just shows you how the machine works. And I think
that this is very instructive to many people who challenge
a lot of whistleblowers on the fact that their credentials
have disappeared, you know?
BO’L: Yes. Yes.
KC: So this is very instructive. Here you are, working
in free energy. You’re an ex-astronaut. I know there’s
a video on Google in which you are actually speaking before
the White House during the Bush administration, not so long
ago. And you know, very fiery, very impressive, very courageous,
basically saying that Bush should not be in office and talking
to some degree about the cover-up.
That’s tremendously courageous, and yet I didn’t
know anything about it until we started to investigate coming
to see you and all. Can you talk a little bit about that?
And then I know that you also did the same thing back in the
Nixon administration, but the number of people around you was
strikingly reduced. And I want to do that because I want to
talk about how times are changing.
KC: And what may be coming down the line.
BO’L: Yes. It’s very sad for me to see
And, yes, you’re right, Kerry, that in 1970 I was an
anti-Vietnam War protestor, and along with other people from
Cornell and many places there were about 100,000 of us. When
Cambodia was invaded, we marched on Washington towards the
White House. A number of us that were leaders of this protest
locked arms and tried to walk between a line of buses that
was blocking the White House from us.
We were fully expecting to be handcuffed and arrested -- which
was fine, you know; it was an act of civil disobedience. Instead,
we were invited into the White House to express our outrage
with some of Nixon’s advisors.
And then just after that, some of us… I think the interview
with me was the lead story on CBS Evening News. It
would have been, and you can probably look it up, I think it
was April 30, 1970.
KC: And there was also a certain number of people that
KC: Which is amazing.
BO’L: And by contrast, I joined a protest march
onto the White House in 2007. No… 2006. It was the fifth
anniversary of 9/11 and there were a few, it was a motley crew
of about 30 of us. [Kerry laughs]
It was a beautiful day. It was September 11, 2006 and we marched
to the White House. Some of my 9/11 Truther friends and I gave
little speeches in front of the White House.
And what I felt there was that Washington had changed, that
it was no longer a place where there’d be any democratic
discourse. Instead, it was a locked shop. It was like people
were robotically walking around, business as usual.
To me, 9/11 Truth is sort of like a metaphor for what’s
going on now. There are other truths, too, of course, like
solution energy truth, truths that are being covered up, but
it’s being covered up also by people who are otherwise
intelligent and free-thinking and progressive. Those people
aren’t there either. They’re buying into the system.
The system itself has become kind of locked up. And this is
so sad to me. The reason why I guess I have what you might
call some degree of courage, other people might call it naivety
or foolishness, is that I sometimes think: It’s either
the Earth or Me, or anybody else that wants to try to
make a difference and bring in the new paradigm.
Because I happen to think we can have a new paradigm,
but we need to stand and be counted. We need to go to the White
House, bang pots.
I mean, we had a change in the presidency of Ecuador, a very
positive change, as a result of about a million people getting
out there in front of the presidential palace and banging pots
until the president left. That’s non-violent. It’s
a method of changing.
And what’s happening now in the US is very scary because
the people in charge that are obviously pulling the strings
of the politicians, bribing them… and it’s so
obvious, especially seen from here, to see the decline of the
culture in just about every respect, whether it’s economic,
ecological, peace vs. war… It’s locked up. It’s
a closed shop.
There are a few courageous people around that I know, friends
like Dennis Kucinich and, you know, some of the others, Cynthia
McKinney. I’ve done some work with Ralph Nader, although
I couldn’t convince him that solution energy was possible.
There are a lot of people that do stand on the good side of
the force, but they’re very few and far between now.
KC: Mm hm.
BO’L: And I want to be joined by people. I need
support. I need to team up with more and more people who feel
as I do and are willing to stand and be counted.
KC: Well, can you talk… Just name a few names
if you don’t mind, of the people that are actually in
more or less the alternative world but they’re not willing
to actually embrace the ideas of free energy, even UFOs? You
know, the idea that there might be black projects out there?
I mean, because we had talked briefly, and I know that you
talked about… Some of these people are actually good
friends of yours.
BO’L: Yes. There are many people in the progressive
community. I would say Kucinich himself is in this category.
He’s been on the fence. I was able to script for him
an interview he had with NPR when he was running for president
in 2004. I was advising him on solution energy and trying to
come up with the right words so that he could become all-inclusive
about, you know, leaving no stone unturned in our quest for
new energy sources.
And so Kucinich did a little of that, but then he kind of
retrenched some. There were a number of glitches that came
up, but he wanted to create some legislation that would provide
funding for New Energy research and development, which is what
we really need. We need an Apollo Program for this. We need
to bring people under one roof to research it.
BO’L: Or to somehow in other ways support the
work. Well… which is not happening now, of course. But
there are other people…
KC: But there are other thinkers that are very… movers
and shakers in many ways, criticizing the current paradigm.
They’re very courageous in that way. And yet they won’t,
they actually won’t go outside the box, to a certain
BO’L: Exactly. They’re what Wade Frazier,
a good friend, and I call structuralists. These are
people like Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, and they’re also
the kind of people that won’t look at 9/11 Truth, so
there’s a pattern here. [Kerry laughs]
There’s a pattern of various things that become what
David Ray Griffin calls sacred myths. One sacred myth
is the official story of 9/11: It’s true, and it’s
obviously true, and there’s no disputing it.
Another sacred myth is that there’s no such thing as
a free lunch when it comes to energy. So you have all of these
environmentalists that are just nay-saying even the possibility of
free energy, and this would be a number of notable people,
people on the cutting edge of environmental policy. I’ve
broached this to many famous well-known people. I’ll
list a few.
KC: Please do.
BO’L: OK. Amory Lovens. Lester Brown, formerly
of the Worldwatch Institute. Amory just walked away from me
when I broached it, and I’ve known him for years.
KC: Are they afraid? You know, can you actually sort
of drill down a little and tell us? Do you think that it’s… are
they afraid? Or is it something else? Is it the matrix, that
they’ve actually bought into the matrix and that was
it, they couldn’t get beyond that? They’re certainly
critics of the society, but they don’t, you know…
BO’L: Yes. That’s an excellent question,
Kerry, and I can’t second-guess their negative reaction
because I’m not in their skin, but it might be a blend
of the two.
I know that it was politically correct and sort of de
rigueur when I was in the mainstream of science to nay-say
and deny anything that fell outside the box, and then I was
accepted. So some of it’s cultural, for sure.
Somebody like Amory Lovens or Noam Chomsky or Naomi Klein,
and there are many other names too. I can probably pop for
several more whose bias, or let’s say critique of
the culture is narrowly confined to certain areas. Now, on
the other hand, I have to grant them that maybe they just didn’t
have time to look at these other things…
KC: OK. [laughs]
BO’L: …like the energy or 9/11 Truth. But
on the other hand, maybe they are in the matrix. Maybe fear
has so captivated them that they’re in the box.
KC: Well, don’t you have a story about “The
Carrot and The Stick”? I think that this would be a great
opportunity to talk about it. Because it may not be just fear
but also the reward system that they get, through ”normal
society”, if you will.
BO’L: Well, yes. And I think that many people… and
I’ve broken free of it, but it took me a long time, and
it took a lot of truth-seeking.
But, yes, a lot of people… Yes. Yes, they basically
realize that their careers could be ruined by this. I don’t
think most of them get to the point where there are threats,
but yes, some people are offered very lucrative opportunities
to “join the team” by The Powers That Be, to come
over to their side. And when that doesn’t happen, then
often they’re whacked by the stick.
John Perkins talks about this in his books, the first one
of which is the Confessions of an Economic Hit Man,
that carrots are dangled. Like, it could come in the form of
a World Bank loan, or it could come in the form to buy you
out, not to do the free energy invention. Or it could be being
recruited to be part of their team, and becoming privy to some
information that you otherwise couldn’t get.
KC: Well, certainly funding for experimentation -- From
the point of view of a scientist, that’s always the most
seductive thing, one would assume.
BO’L: That’s right. And a lot of free energy
Now, for example, the Patent Office has a policy to nay-say
anything that smacks of free energy. Or the Department of Defense
has the Secrecy Law which says that if this device has any
defense application -- [laughs] offense application
-- then you’re going to have your device confiscated and
you can never work on it again.
KC: Well, along those lines, let’s actually move
along to free energy. And I know you’ve done a tremendous
amount of investigation here, but you’ve also investigated
the cover-up of free energy and the people that have maybe
gotten to a certain point and then been, I don’t know,
hit in one way or another, the device stolen.
Do you have some anecdotes along those lines and some people
that you can talk about who’ve done investigations? I
know you traveled the world doing some… in one of your
books talking about that.
BO’L: Well, yes. I mean, first of all, there are
many inventors who have been assassinated, threatened, had
their funding removed. And I can go through the list. Obviously
you’ll be able to post the list and their stories.
BO’L: And I’ve been able to authenticate
many of these stories myself, personally, and they’re
pretty much right-on.
But they’re people like Tom Bearden. There’s a
man called Gary Vesperman, who’s accumulated many, many
suppression stories of all kinds, for free energy.
There’s Wade Frazier and his excellent website www.ahealedplanet.net in
which he explores, in many hundreds of pages, many suppression
stories and some of his own experience with the inventor and
promoter, Dennis Lee. And there are just so many others.
You know, that’s one of the things I’ve said in
my “Carrot and the Stick” story, is that there
are a thousand ways to suppress an inventor or researcher.
And there are also a thousand ways to eliminate them or threaten
them. And there are…
It’s also, we’re also vulnerable to forces because
we have these bodies and these bodies are very vulnerable to
any kind of attack or threat, and those of our loved ones.
KC: Mm hm.
BO’L: So in a sense, The Powers That Be hold all
the cards right now, and most people are afraid to even venture
into this territory.
And that, in part, is also a psychological phenomenon. There’s
been some really good research done on this, that the pain
center of the brain is hit as soon as you start to talk about
anything that smacks of conspiracy theory (which, of course,
is the dismissal that’s really truth-seeking), that
anything, any painful new truth is going to reach the pain
center of the brain first.
Whereas, if you join the lynch mob, [laughs] if you join The
Powers That Be, then everything is pretty comfortable. The
pleasure center. You can have fun with life.
KC: Mm hm.
BO’L: So in a way, it’s “Me or
the Earth”. [laughs] That’s the way it seems
to be, and this dark agenda which is not really so hidden
now if people only take the time out and look at that.
But also look at the great promise and potential of solution
energy. It’s really a one-two punch in education that’s
But at the same time I have many wonderful dear friends,
progressive people, otherwise progressive, who still can’t
get their heads around the free energy question because they
say: Well, you know, if you show it to me then I’ll
believe it, but until then it’s not worth looking at
as a question.
KC: Well, George Green is a friend of yours and he’s
been working with John Bedini. And you know, George is one
of those people who is certainly on the side of free energy
and is certainly aware of it. Have you seen a device, or have
you seen John Bedini’s work? And what might you think
of that? And so on.
BO’L: Oh yes. I visited many laboratories and
visited a lot of people and I took photographs of them, but
I’ve also investigated in great detail the concepts.
[Showing pictures in his book]: Like, for example, this man
is Sparky Sweet, or Floyd Sweet. I visited him in the ’90s.
He’s passed over now. And this is a specially conditioned
magnet that he was showing. It produces free energy.
His laboratory was in an undisclosed location in the Mojave
Desert. He had before been in LA and was broken
into, his laboratory was broken into. He was threatened. They
were spying on him with infrared cameras. You know, all of
this was well documented.
This is Bruce DePalma, who invented the N-machine while he
was at MIT. And he was so suppressed by the Securities and
Exchange Commission when he tried to start his own company,
he immigrated to Australia. They didn’t like it there,
either, so he immigrated to New Zealand and died young of a
heart attack, about a decade ago.
This is some of Bruce’s apparatus. It’s an N-machine.
It’s basically a magnetic motor, magnets that go up on
a wheel that are spun up and then they interact with a hypothesized
zero-point vacuum energy field and you get free energy. You
get over-unity power.
This is Paramahamsa Tewari in India who had demonstrated a
version of the N-machine which is magnets on a motor, on a
wheel. Now, Tewari is a very prestigious physicist. He works
for the government of India.
He was chief project engineer of their largest nuclear power
plant, but they also… the government of India gave him
laboratory space and funding to develop this machine which
he demonstrated to me, and which was lighting light bulbs with
the machine being unplugged. It was just free-running for 20,
30 minutes. And the basic principles were very, very well presented
to me, photographed. It’s there for everybody to see.
This is Shiuji Inomata. He also passed over at a relatively
young age. He worked for the Tsukuba Space Center in Japan,
also a Ph.D. physicist and president of the Japan Psychotronics
Institute. And he had also one of these magnetic motors which
was spinning up and producing excess energy. And, again, he
died young. Most of all these people die young.
This is John Hutchison, from Canada.
KC: Right. Well, we have had interactions with John
and actually we’d love to interview him at some point.
Can you tell us, you know, your take on his…
BO’L: Yes. John has personal psychic powers, but
he’s also brilliant with machines. So this is
John and he actually was taking Meredith’s Camelot sword,
and then he took this bar of what he would call al-u-min-ium which
was thoroughly trashed by one of his Tesla coils. And of course
the US Department of Defense immediately took an interest in
this, for reasons other than John.
John is a loving, gentle soul and he basically has demonstrated
many times over how he can produce free energy just from specially
BO’L: He’d be a good one to interview. He’s
a wonderful guy and he’s also done many experiments levitating
objects and producing free energy.
KC: Yes. Some of his videos are on Google.
KC: We’ve seen some of them.
BO’L: This is Yull Brown, who was doing a demonstration
of “Brown’s gas” for me, which was, again,
anomalous amounts of energy, just brilliant light, in his welding
And Tom Bearden. Moray King. These are leading
theorists. So these are people that I visited over the course
of about ten years and have reported on.
This was a meeting of free energy researchers that was convened
by a software billionaire in Estes Park, Colorado, in 1993
and ’94, and there are a lot of...
KC: And the software billionaire was? Could we name
BO’L: Well, I think I’d rather not because…
BO’L: My comments weren’t always positive
but he convened these people with the intention of trying to
find out the best and brightest researchers and the best concepts
BO’L: And then he suddenly did a reversal and
said: No, I’m not going to fund any of this because
my marketing people told me that we were not dipping into the
river of optimized profits. [Kerry laughs]
In other words, when you’re in the toe of the profit
curve… We’re still at the Research phase of the
So that’s what the government is supposed to be doing.
The Department of Energy is supposed to be funding these things.
And my god, they’re hardly even funding solar and wind!
They’re totally steeped in nuclear weapons, nuclear power,
and fossil fuel power.
But in this picture there are some people, really sad cases.
This was Stefan Marinov, who was Europe’s leading free
energy inventor and researcher. He was a professor of physics
at the University of Graz in Austria. Jolly fellow, wonderful
man, just positive and upbeat. And a few years ago, a few years
after this conference, he was seen jumping off the 10th story
of the library building, to his death.
BO’L: Some people saw him going backwards. It
looked like he was pushed off. And again, it’s just another
one of these cases.
There are many other people in this picture who are no longer
alive, but these are the leading free energy researchers from
all over the word. And Jim Carrey, who was filming Dumb
and Dumber, while we were trying to get smart and
KC: [laughs] Yes. Interesting. So... OK. Let’s
go from here to what kind of solutions you’re advocating,
or where you think we can go for the future, just to sort of
inspire all the people that are listening to this. Because
truly you are a very inspiring man and, you know, your courage,
your willingness to think outside of the box, and then in the
face of all odds, to persist on this road. I mean, you just
released this new book. Right?
BO’L: Right. The Energy Solution Revolution.
KC: Exactly. So what is it that your book is about?
What are you advocating? And how can you encourage, or give
us an encouraging word, about the future, if you have one?
BO’L: Well, I think the bottom line of this… This
is the book and I’ve been working on it for about 6 years.
It’s kind of different essays, but they all come together
because they first talk about, well, just looking at the table
of contents, that it’s being covered up at every turn.
KC: Mm hm.
BO’L: There is hardly anybody alive that’s
NOT covering it up, either by commission or omission.
Orwell one time said: The greatest lies are lies of omission.
And so a lot of people who are otherwise progressive and enlightened
and very bright just suppress it.
And so this book is a study of the breakthroughs and the suppression.
Also the ecological mandate, the fact that the problems with
the Earth are far greater than you would be led to believe
in the media.
Then I talk about: Well, what is this tyranny and how
can we overcome it? Well, we can certainly overcome
it by education and by revamping our political systems.
Right now I think people are beginning to wake up to the fact
that even Obama doesn’t really represent change. He’s
But all these people, and I would include in there a lot of
people that are otherwise progressive that we have already
talked about plus many others, leaders of the environmental
movement, for example -- that the cover-up is fairly complete.
And in a sense it’s very similar to the UFO/ET phenomenon,
to 9/11, anything else where conventional wisdom denies it.
And so, I kind of pick this apart. I try to ask: Well,
who’s doing the denying? Scientists are doing
it. They are the guardians at the gate.
People who call themselves scientists are the number one suppressors.
And so they’re in unwitting alliance with the Black Ops
people because, you know, if the scientists won’t give
it the possibility, the yes-nod, then it probably won’t
get anywhere. It’s sort of like… Galileo’s
colleagues refused to look through his telescope.
Then you have the environmentalists and I’ve talked
with many leading environmentalists.
Here’s another example: Hazel Henderson, a leading progressive
economist, doesn’t want free energy because she doesn’t
want millions of helicopters in the sky and bigger power saws.
And I don’t blame her.
So that then forces the question: Well, this has to be
managed. We don’t want Dick Cheney running this
one again. [laughs]
KC: Exactly. [laughs]
BO’L: So the environmentalists are suppressing
it. I don’t know of a mainstream environmentalist that’s
even willing to give it a moment of thought.
Al Gore. There’s another example of somebody who… I’ve
written letters to him. He doesn’t answer. So my battle
is very lonely. [laughter] And then… what else?
Well, there’s the corporations. The CEO of General Electric
wrote this editorial for the Washington Post saying
that we need the courage to change to new energy solutions.
And then he mentions the conditions under which this has to
One is the creative mind. He thinks yes, we have that. And
then the second one was: It must turn over a profit. And
then the third one was the American will. And he sees the third
I see the second ingredient as interfering, because
General Electric’s profits… and their shareholders
depend on their making nuclear power plants and gas turbine
If you were to have a free energy gizmo that could fit in
the palm of your hand, just like your dictaphone there, that
could produce 10 kilowatts of power, which I fully believe
can happen some day, General Electric is not going to want to
develop it because it would take away from their business with
gas turbine plants and nuclear power plants.
So, the condition to turn over a profit… I kind of
argue: Well, how much profit is enough? Clearly General
Electric is not at all interested in this. And, you know, the
multi-national corporations and the government have been suppressing
these things anyway. That’s obvious.
So this book is all about documenting the efforts not only
to break through but to suppress it. And even in light of what
so many people say…
When is there a day when you don’t pick up a newspaper
or hear some sort of thing on the media that: Al Gore says
we need to do something about this soon. [Kerry laughs] We
need to develop alternate energy. And then, when it comes
to the question of “what”, the question is evaded.
BO’L: Or at the very least it’s lip service
given to solar and wind, which is very capital-intensive, materials-intensive.
It’s not truly renewable. It’s intermittent. It’s
KC: Isn’t Obama also talking about, you know,
going back into coal?
KC: I mean, we’re actually going backwards. Now
the Black Ops of course, we document here in Camelot, are thousands
of years ahead and they’ve got free energy and they’re
using it as we speak now. I think that you told us you wrote
to Obama. Is this correct?
BO’L: Yes. Recently. And it’s
on my website brianoleary.com.
It’s right there on the home page. It’s an open
appeal to Obama to really represent the change we need and
not just in rhetorical means.
For that you’re going to have to bite the hand that fed
you. You’re going to have to go against these very wealthy
elite people that are holding the puppet strings, including
And we have to become educated about what the possibilities
are. And what’s happened is, as you say, he’s gone
backwards. He’s talking about “clean” coal.
[Kerry laughs] There’s no such thing! That’s an
oxymoron. Or about advanced nuclear. Or sequestration at coal
power plants, which is not even feasible and it’s a gross
So, he’s just far behind in the curve. And
so I’m just making an appeal to him to say that, you
know: Please for heaven’s sake, our planet is being
destroyed. Will you please serve the public interest because
the public interest is not being served with what’s happening.
And even solar and wind, I hate to say, are half-measures
because the capital cost of a solar or wind economy is on the
order of 20 to 40 trillions dollars. We don’t have that
kind of money.
Free energy is basically free, once we’re able
to develop the hardware to the point where it becomes available.
And then of course, all hell will break loose.
But, you know, the suppression effort… There’s
two great quotes here. Let me see if I can find ’em.
This is one: In a time of universal deceit, telling the
truth becomes a revolutionary act. – George Orwell.
BO’L: And that’s what’s going on right
now. We’re being deceived. Big time.
Here’s another one: When stupidity is considered
patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent. – Isaac
KC: Yes. And there you go. That’s Dumb and
Dumber and the big rush to have movies emphasizing how
funny, how lovely, it is to be stupid.
So… OK. This has been really amazing, Brian, and I
have to say that if ex-astronaut Brian O’Leary was writing
to me, and I was the president, certainly it almost seems like
to you need to write back. Or to Al Gore. Right? And isn’t
it surprising that, with your stature, that these men would
actually ignore you? There’s something to be said there,
BO’L: Well, yes, there is something to be said
there, and it suggests to me that they’re part of the
overall dark agenda.
BO’L: And it’s just their wrinkle on it
is a little different. It’s a little more benign-sounding.
KC: Mm hm.
BO’L: One could just even be so risqué as
to say that they advocate genocide by other means. I’m
not really sure what’s going on in their minds. All I
know is that their lack of answers and the lack of answers
from the people they surround themselves with and people that
espouse the conventional wisdom…
I mean, even James Lovelock in England. He thinks outside the
box, but he’s unbudgable. Amory Lovens. That’s
another one who thinks outside the box, but not enough. Now: What’s
Now, these are also the kinds of people that show up at the
so-called Green Salons in Washington, DC. It’s like the
whole Beltway of Washington is a fortress and that it’s
almost a sign of prestige to interact with some of the folks
at the DoD and CIA because it might be your passport to… Something.
And meanwhile outside the box there are all these wonderful
concepts waiting in the wings...
BO’L: …that could really create a sustainable
future for humankind. And these people don’t listen.
I mean, I’ve had some access to Al Gore through intermediaries
that know him and they won’t budge. You know. I could
name names there, too.
It’s just that the conventional wisdom pervades the
entire progressive community. It’s like a big disease
that’s affected everybody. And then most people are simply
apathetic or they don’t know.
Wade Frazier says: You have to peel the onion of free
energy. And what that means is a combination of a certain
degree of open-mindedness, intelligence, sentience, spiritual
development, and on and on.
KC: Right. In other words, it’s such a powerful
theoretical technology, or reality for those that are using
it, its possibilities are so grand, that you actually have
to be on a certain level spiritually to deal with that, as
a planet. And I think that that’s also where we’re
going and where we’re going to have to come to terms.
KC: Because as long as war and weapons is our god, so
to speak, on this planet, free energy is just not appropriate
to be used by those people.
BO’L: You’re totally right. You’re
totally right, Kerry.
KC: So we need a totally different set of leaders, a
different set of thinking. Right?
KC: And in many ways you’re right on the avant
garde of that effort. And I do believe you have many
people behind you.
BO’L: Well, that’s good, Kerry, and they’re
now kind of divided and ruled. And of course part of your effort
and your search for the Holy Grail, which this is a part of,
a significant part of, could create more strength in numbers
of people willing to stand and be counted for proposing these
Because I, too, would be actually opposed to the development
of free energy if The Powers That Be continue to be in power,
because they would abuse it.
BO’L: They would misuse it. They would… just
like in the ET phenomenon, back-engineering and so forth, they’d
keep it in the Black [Ops] and use it for their own purposes.
So the people of the Earth need to know about this more.
There are some hopeful signs here. One of them is the country
of Ecuador, whose president is a great deal more enlightened
than prior presidents, and whose government just passed a new
constitution which provides for the Rights of Nature -- and
whose president has offered that if the world community were
to attract matching funding, that oil under the ground in a
very pristine bio-diverse national park would stay in the ground,
if the funds could be raised enough.
And so, you see, the whole thing is systemic. The whole world
system is decadent and disgustingly… I just… You
name the negative word. Evil, I guess, is the right
word for it.
More and more people are realizing that, but maybe what they
don’t realize is that we can make a difference.
We can create another agenda, together.
I don’t talk much about alternative agenda to the Black
Ops or Illuminati agenda, but believe me, it’s a lot
more pleasant. [Kerry laughs]
I don’t even want to prejudice the question: Well,
what is that agenda? Well, I can see a world that’s
truly sustainable, a world in which our knowledge expands
to embrace the ET phenomenon, a world where magic, what we
consider as magic, can now really happen. A world where combined
positive intention can heal ourselves and the environment.
BO’L: And where consciousness, which is really
the science of the 21st century, can burst forward in very
dramatic counterpoint to what now is happening.
KC: OK. Well, thank you Brian. That’s wonderful.
And more power to you! It’s been really educational for
Bill and I to be here. We want to thank you for being our host
and Meredith, a lovely hostess, and for opening your home to
We just completed a conference here that you organized and
it was very inspiring. I think a lot of people really enjoyed
it. We hope to do more of them. And certainly, again, here
you are on the avant garde of actually getting the
word out, not only about free energy but about, you know, what’s
been going on, the cover-up, and the potential for the future
that is there for all of us if we just take hold.
BO’L: Yes. We’re starting here, Kerry, an
alternative educational and conference center. It’s called Montesuenos.
It’s in the Andes of Ecuador. My wife, Meredith, and
I have been spending the last five years creating it and now
blessed by your presence and the conference that we just had.
We expect to have many more. And we invite kindred spirits.
And whistleblowers! [laughter]
KC: Absolutely. The more truth-tellers, the better.
BO’L: Yes! And that’s such an important
thing. Your work is very important. Somebody had to do the
work. Steve Greer has done a piece of it and is doing a piece
of it. And together we can then enlighten ourselves and the
public about, first of all, the nasty truth, and then the potential
truth of what could be in a better world. And then
together create that world. There’s no reason why we
can’t do that.
KC: Absolutely. Thank you very much, Brian. Yes. I
think we covered it all.
BO’L: One thing, though, I’ve never been
in Black Ops and I’ve never been privy to it, even as
BO’L: So, it’s funny because I know most
of the people you interview have been there. And that’s
a whole different order of things.
BO’L: I kind of come on naively.
KC: Right. But you skirted it. You’ve been affected
by them. They see you as a threat and in some ways that’s
just as good, from Camelot’s point of view. You know,
you definitely qualify, if you will, [Brian laughs] for better
or for worse.
I think that the wonderful thing about your life is that you’ve
actually lived through all these experiences as an astronaut.
Right? So, as a person of respect, that garners respect, and
a person who people could rally around, at the same time you’re
willing to have such an open mind and consider everything.
And that’s such a rare thing to get in a person of respect
nowadays, I’m sorry to say.
BO’L: Yes. And in my case I guess I just had
to check it out as I went along and my gestation of many of
these things took a LONG time. So now I’m hoping for
others in the lay public and just people, curious people…
The kind of people that came to the conference were just fine people
that want to get educated more about these things, and who
may not… we may not… have as much luxury of time
as I had when I was going through my process of decompression
from the mainstream. It’s been 30 years so far, and that
process continues to this very moment.
BR: I guess we could say that you’re in Green
BO’L: Green Ops. Yes. [laughs] That’s great.
Green Ops. You know, we ought to have an Earth Corps. We ought
to have a “New Deal” [that] Obama could lead that
would get people out to clean up the Earth. And have solution
energy research and development. And consciousness research
and make it OK to do those things. Why not?
KC: Yes. Absolutely. Why not?
BO’L: Yes. But it has to have public support.
You can’t do it without the public. History has shown
KC: Well, that’s what doing this video is going to
do. That’s the whole point of doing things like this.
I mean, your book coming out, and hopefully the video coming
out very shortly, it’s the kind of thing that’s
going to start the movement and gather the people. And that’s
what you need. We’re going to have the power of numbers.
That’s what we want.
KC: And I believe we’re going to have it and it’s
already out there.
BO’L: Right. It’s already out there.
KC: It’s a matter of focusing.
BO’L: And also then, the personal. It’s
both. It’s the Earth and then some of us in pioneering
work. Personally we’re safer because then our work outlives
us and there’s no reason to…
KC: And safety in numbers. Right?
BO’L: Safety in numbers. Yes.
I think so. I’m
optimistic that this can happen, that we really do have a positive
future. And that’s why I’m on this planet. That’s
why I’m alive, is to express that vision.