Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy interviewed by Arjan Bos
Amsterdam, Holland, August 2009
[Ed note: Normally the transcripts that had any parts in them that had been difficult for the transcribers to hear were put in “audibles” in square brackets in red for Bill Ryan to attend to, fix, then he’d post the transcript; however, due to unexpected interruptions in the normal working process in Project Camelot, this normal process was not able to proceed forward, so the audibles were left in the square brackets.]
ARJAN BOS (AB): Hello, this is a video interview by Willen
Wij Weten. My name is Arjan Bos and, for those of you who don’t know, Willen Wij Weten is a Dutch alternative news website which means: Do We Want To Know?
August, the 2nd of the year 2009, we’re very happy to have Bill
Ryan and Kerry Cassidy of Project Camelot with us here in Amsterdam.
and Kerry, welcome.
CASSIDY (KC): Thank you.
RYAN (BR): And, as we say in English, the
boot is on the other foot, because
we’re on the other side of the camera, you know?
I think this is the first time. [to Kerry] Is this the first time
someone’s done us? Done a video interview of us?
It might be, I don’t know.
If it has happened before…
We’ve had a lot of interviews, but, actually, not on video, I
Not on video.
You’ve had radio interviews. I’ve heard some radio
And we’ve done conferences, but we haven’t done a video
interview with someone like yourself, I don’t think. And if
there’s someone out there saying: Well,
what about mine?
Then we’re sorry, we can’t remember it, because we can’t
I would really like that area: conference. I would like to go into
more personal detail than is usual in Project Camelot videos, and
also, when you’re interviewed in radio interviews, it’s
mostly about the subjects that you cover in the Project Camelot.
I’m also interested in is… because you put a lot out
there already in your personal stories. For example, I listened to a
radio show a couple of weeks ago and in that you mentioned, Bill,
that you once had an ET girlfriend.
Oh, my goodness! Okay, yes. [Kerry laughs] Why did I have to say
And we really are wondering about that. How did you know this? What
was it like?
Well, okay. As we say in English: How
long have you got?
Because it’s a long story.
I’m trying to think of how best to present the story. It was
definitely linked to an abduction experience which I had in the
Himalayas -- and this is something I don’t often talk about. I
did, actually, mention it with our interview with Steven Greer that
is going to be published in a few days’ time. By the time this
is out, people will have had a chance to see that.
to give some context for that, the reason why I mentioned that to
Steven Greer on camera – I took a deep breath and said: Okay.
I’ll tell people about my own abduction experience
– is because he was saying that most, if not all, of abductions
were actually faked by the American military in some way.
Now, this was in December, 1981 and I was at 7,000 meters in the
Himalayas in December, in winter, in northern Nepal on a mountain
called Makalu on a small British expedition. We were trying to climb
it. We didn’t actually do it, but we got quite high.
note: Mt Makalu is the 5th-highest
mountain in the world; it is just 14 miles east of Mt Everest.]
was abducted out of my tent in the middle of the night in December.
It’s not a usual abduction when they come to, like, an
apartment in Amsterdam, which is all nice and easy and…
I don’t think any abduction is easy, do you? [laughs]
BR: No, sure. But this was quite
unusual because I was floated out of my tent. The temperature was
probably – it was the middle of the night in December in the
Himalayas at 7,000 meters – the temperature must have been
about minus 40 Celsius, maybe colder.
I recalled this happening -- because, as with almost
all abductions, you don’t remember -- when I recalled it
happening, the moment that I remember sitting in my tent...
was lying in my tent, the three of us like sardines. There’s my
friend here and my friend here, and I was like that, and I was all
zipped up in my sleeping bag. Then the zip of the tent opened and
this little Gray being poked his head through and looked at me, you
know, like that.
was the single most frightening moment of my whole life, when I
remembered that moment. I nearly jumped right out of my chair and
went through the ceiling when I remembered that. It’s like: Oh,
And then, I mean, it was real. Because you don’t get shocked
by an imaginary memory, you get shocked by a real memory.
Now, this is all very complicated because I don’t believe that
was a malicious abduction. I believe that something was going on
which was in some way a preparation for what we’re doing now.
[indicating himself and Kerry]
It probably was all with my agreement at a higher level, because I’m
very comfortable with what’s happening now. At the time I
didn’t understand the experience, but I wasn’t... it’s
don’t know what’s going on. What’s going on? What’s
But it wasn’t something that I
wished hadn’t happened. I just wanted to know why it was
Now... [sighs] It’s so very
complicated. At that time, one of the people I was with was a
mountaineer friend of mine. He was a small guy. He was... I can only
speak in terms of English feet. He was about five-foot, two. What’s
that, about one meter, sixty? Somebody? Something like that?
Something like that, mm-hm.
He was quite a small guy. He had had an ET experience at that time
as well, in the same expedition, the previous day. He only told me
about this years later. When he was going down the mountain from the
same place, he fell into a crevasse, which is not a good idea if
you’re a mountaineer on your own. Usually that’s the end
of the game; that’s it.
He fell into a crevasse and, the way that he told the story was:
thing I knew I was out of the crevasse.
He’d been teleported out of the crevasse and there were two
beings there who talked with him for a long time.
he was telling me this story, I was becoming really freaked out
because I knew that just the day after that I had my abduction
experience, and we were comparing our experiences.
’round about that time as well I had a girlfriend who was also
very small. She was even smaller. She was about four-foot, ten. What
would that be?
That’s small. I mean, one meter, forty, or something.
That’s pretty small.
She had a lot of very interesting psychic powers. She was a very
unusual person. She would always tell me, and this always kind of
slightly freaked me out because I really enjoyed being with her. She
She said: We
won’t always be together, but I will always love you.
And, I mean, I don’t know how
to… you know? How on Earth do you respond to something like
would know when things were going to happen; she’d make the
phone ring, and she’d be totally telepathic. Once or twice I’d
be really upset and she’d just look into my eyes and then the
upset would disappear, all this kind of weird stuff. But, then,
humans can do that, too.
night we were in bed, just cuddling in bed. It was about 11 o’clock
at night. She had her back to the door, and I was looking over her
shoulder towards the door. And then this being
appeared in the door, okay?
wasn’t like a classical Gray being, but it looked very much
like what Arthur Neumann [a.k.a. ‘Henry Deacon’]
describes as a child-like being with quite big eyes, but not the kind
of weird eyes, you know... kind of large eyes and quite a round head,
but also quite small.
Also like the being you saw in your tent?
Not like the being I saw in my tent. The being I saw in my tent was
more of the classical Gray, you see?
Okay. And I saw this being in my room, sitting right there –
sorry -- standing right there in the doorway. I froze, and didn’t
say anything, because I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.
Angie, which was her name, she had her back to the door, and I didn’t
say a word. She said: Don’t
worry. It’s all right, I’ve seen them all my life. You’ve
got nothing to be afraid of.
This being is behind her and I hadn’t
said anything. This whole thing completely freaked me out.
I spoke to my other friend about this, Dave. Now, he was the
mountaineer guy. He said: I
know that that happened.
I said: How do you know?
He said: I
that freaked me out even more, and I went back to Angie and I told
her about the conversation I’d had with Dave, and it was ’round
about that time that he told me about the incident in the Himalayas –
this is a very complicated story -- and Angie said: I
haven’t talked with Dave about any of this, but looking into
Dave’s head is like looking into my own,
these two small beings, with these strange abilities. Angie would say
things to me like, an example was what I mentioned before, she’d
say: You’re very
We won’t always be together, but I’ll always love you.
day we were sitting having breakfast, just like with the croissants
and the coffee and, you know, and she just looked at me and she said:
The Earth is a very
beautiful place and it won’t always be this way.
never forgotten those words. It sends a chill down my spine every
time I think about it.
I said: What? What did you
say? You know, and she
just almost ignored the fact that she’d said it and she just
carried on eating breakfast.
were a number of other things which she said which I can’t
But ’round about this time I found myself thinking: This
person is not a normal person, absolutely not a normal person.
No. What she said comes from a place of knowing.
really strange going on here.
mean, I can spend two hours talking about all the experiences I’ve
had here, but something which was really remarkable happened...
actually there are two more
parts of this story. [to Kerry] I don’t want to take this story
away from you because you’ve got a lot of stories of your own
[laughs] It doesn’t matter.
Two other things happened that are worth recording, the second one
say here; I never tell
anybody because it’s so bizarre.
attended a personal-development workshop, where you get in touch with
some of the thoughts and beliefs that you have that limit yourself,
and all of that kind of stuff. She was very small. She was the eldest
of three sisters, but she was the smallest, and she’d always
make kind of jokes about herself. You know, she’d say: I’m
not really small, people just think I’m small, you
know, and so on and so forth.
this workshop she realized that she had an investment in being small.
In other words, because she was small, she got to be the center of
attention, she got to make jokes about herself, she got to, you
know... it’s what psychologists and therapists call a “pay
When she realized that, she grew. She was 26 years old and she grew
– I’ve got to do the calculation again – she grew
two and a half inches, which is about eight centimeters, in two
And I have a feeling that it was actually overnight, but I can’t
prove that. It was definitely within two weeks.
what happened was like something out of a comedy film. I hadn’t
seen her for a little while because she’d been doing this
workshop and stuff, and I went to give her a hug and I said: Look,
there’s no need for you to stand on your toes.
said: I’m not
standing on my toes. And
I said: Yes you are
because you’re taller!
said: I’m not
taller. What do you mean? And
she said: Look.
looked and she was standing flat on her feet... and she was taller.
Then we ran around the house seeing if she could fit into her
clothes, and if she could fit into her shoes, and her shoes wouldn’t
So she wasn’t aware of it herself.
For some reason, she had no idea, which is why I think this happened
really suddenly. I have a feeling this happened really suddenly.
No... this is biologically impossible. But then you start talking
Very, very high strangeness. But she definitely grew. We measured
her. It was midnight and I went around phoning up all my friends,
grown! Angie’s grown! [Arjan
they said: What? What are
you talking…? What? [laughter]
was like something out of a very, very bad comedy movie. But that
happened. She did grow.
got really excited. I said: Right!
You’re going to keep on growing. You’re going to be
really tall. But she
freaked out about this whole thing, because there’s this human
aspect of her. And then she stopped; she stopped growing.
was remarkable. And that really happened.
other thing that happened was the culmination of what I’d
earlier described as she was saying, you know: We’re
not always going to be together but I’ll always love you. And
one day she just left!
said: Okay, I’m
going now. She said:
My purpose in your life is complete.
that’s enough to freak you out when you really love somebody
and spend three years with them. She said: My
purpose in your life is complete, now I’m going. I’ll
always love you. Bye-bye.
said: What’s the
said: There’s no
problem. My purpose in your life is complete.
is why I think this whole thing, whatever it was, connected with this
abduction experience and my other friend, Dave, was some kind of a
setup for this. [Ed note: “this”
being his current
involvement with Project Camelot]
upset by this, as you might imagine.
I couldn’t cope with this at all. I had no way of coping with
it was Christmas time. We’d bought tickets for a skiing
holiday, and it’s like: Well,
what about my skiing holiday?
said: Just give the ticket
to someone else. It’s okay.
had some people staying in my house and I was so upset I stayed in
bed for three days. I couldn’t handle it; I went into a
personal black hole.
was 20 years ago; this was in 1986.
the third day... and this is what I don’t tell anyone. It’s
the most extraordinary story. On the third day another being appeared
in my room, like the first one. And you know that story, that scene
in the movie ET,
you know, when he has his glowing red finger and he heals Elliot
because Eliot is upset, you know, the little boy who he befriends.
is what happened to me. This being appeared in my room, and I’d
been sitting there in bed unable to move, unable to function,
couldn’t handle this. This was not intended. The being came up
to me, with his finger, touched in the middle of the chest [snaps
fingers] and then I was fine. All the upset went away and I went
downstairs and the whole thing was handled for me.
It was a remarkable story. I don’t tell people that because
there’s no way anyone can believe it. I don’t believe it
myself, you know, but that’s what happened.
a very important story for one reason, that, despite its
unbelievability, what it shows me is that these beings who were
behind that abduction and that experience and that program, whatever
it was, they actually have compassion. They really do have
This wasn’t a mindless programmed biological robot. This was
somebody who came in – because it wasn’t part of the plan
that I should be so upset that I couldn’t function – so
they had to fix that. And they fixed it, and it was a compassionate
And you could really feel it like that.
It just disappeared. Everything disappeared, like somebody turned a
switch and I wasn’t upset anymore. I wasn’t upset because
something was added on,
like a mask. The upset was handled because they took the upset away,
which is the basis of all of
charge that’s associated with an incident... you remove that
charge, then you’re back to normal again. It’s the charge
that makes people upset, so they lifted the charge off [snaps
fingers] and then it had gone.
suppose I’ve had a few strange experiences since then, but I
haven’t had anything like that. Every now and then I kind of
hope they might come back and say: Hey
guys, you’re doing a great job.
[Arjan laughs] But, nothing. Nothing of that nature.
You never saw her again, either?
I never saw her again.
Okay. Extraordinary story.
It’s a remarkable story. But one of the reasons why I don’t
tell it... well, actually there are three reasons why I don’t
tell it. One is the standard reason why anyone who’s had a
strange experience usually don’t tell their story, because
people start looking at them a little bit weird.
Another thing is because it’s so complicated that it’s
hard to explain.
the third reason... and all of these things are reasons which I hold
at the same time. The third reason is that other people have
experiences that actually, I believe, are far more significant.
know, and God alone can understand what kind of experiences he’s
been through. And last night we were talking to somebody whose whole
life has been about this, you know, over and over and over again.
also don’t want to be sort of attracting attention to myself as
some special case here, because I don’t think it. It’s a
weird story, but it’s not a special case.
sort of integrated it into my life, and the way I’ve integrated
it into my life is by saying:
You know what? I’m not even going to try and understand that,
but it’s got something to do with what I’m doing now.
What I’m doing
now is important and who I am now is important.
kind of goes right back to where we are now, and the subject of this
conversation. And this is where I want to stop monopolizing the
conversation to bring Kerry into it, because we have had the feeling
over and over again ever since we started, that we have been helped,
we’ve been guided, we’ve had doors opened for us and
we’ve been assisted by hidden hands.
don’t know whether they’re ET, whether they’re
angelic, whatever on Earth is going on, but there’s no
reasonable way that we could have done what we’ve done without
some kind of help.
metaphor which I often use is walking towards a blank wall and then
the door suddenly opens and you go through into another room. You
can’t see the door until you get there, and then it suddenly,
been the experience we’ve had ever since the beginning. And now
I’m going to stop talking!
Okay. Well, the energetics around you too, it’s very clear
that this happens. That you must, in whatever way, have some help.
Yeah. But we’re not the only ones. This is the important
We’re not trying to be special and I’m not trying to be
I experience it myself.
Yeah. Sure. Everyone in this room probably has had experiences that
they find hard to explain. Some people have really
weird experiences and they don’t even talk about them at all.
But the number of human beings who have had remarkable,
transformative experiences is much larger than anyone would think,
I’m quite sure of it.
That’s my very long elevator speech. See what happens when you
ask me a simple question?
Yeah, true. [laughter]
It’s a real danger. I can talk for an hour.
[to Kerry] Maybe in the same radio interview I heard you also say
that you had a UFO experience when you were young, and I wondered
about that. How was it? Did you feel it had any significance of...?
Well, I have to say that my experience is a little different than
Bill’s in the sense that since I was young... I think I had a
repetitious experience going on all the time when I was young.
had a recurring nightmare. I would go to sleep and then I would be
walking down a path out of my front door. It was a little path and
there was a picket fence. I didn’t live in a house that had a
path and a picket fence, okay? [Arjan laughs] But this is what I
And at the end of the picket fence, there would be a man standing
there with a fedora -- you know, one of those hats from, like, a spy
movie -- and an overcoat...
Like a Zorro, or something.
… and I was afraid. I would hear sort of a buzzing sound and
then I would wake up and I would be terrified. That was recurring,
all the time.
the same time... strangely enough, not so long ago I saw a video of
myself with my family when I was… I must have been, I don’t
know, 16, or something like that. And I just looked different than
everyone else. I don’t know how to explain it.
My sister... I can tell you that this is so strange, that my sister
actually turned to me, looked at the video, and said: Who
is that? [laughter]
turned to her and I said: It’s
me. And she’s like
she didn’t remember me from then or something like that. It was
just a weird and strange thing.
And I looked at myself... This has happened to me before. It
happened to me when I was in school. I was videotaped for a... I was
doing a speech or something, and I didn’t know who that was
when I looked at the thing.
don’t know how to explain that, but it was a strange thing that
would happen to me and I was filmed when I was a kid. They were
shooting movies around the school or something, just kids’
anyway, beyond that, as I was reading books on magic and things...
[laughs] When I was eleven, I was very – I taught myself to
read when I was very, very young, before I could go to school. My
brother was going to school and I would sit at the door and wait for
him to come home so I could ask him a word. So I was very, I don’t
know, precocious, you might say.
I wouldn’t say that I was extraordinarily brilliant or some
kind of thing like that, but I was very aware. I guess I was fully
aware when I was a kid.
I was very upset that I was a kid because I couldn’t go out and
just run my life. I didn’t understand why I was put into this
body, and this thing that I was little, and a child, because in my
head I wasn’t that person. You know. I was in another place.
besides that I also had, I guess, awareness of beings
being around all the time.
But have they frightened you?
Certainly. I saw UFOs later…
…when we were older. I just knew about them. In fact, I had
some friends, even...
went to New York and I studied acting, and a couple friends said to
me one day, they said: Well,
you’re really like an ET. [laughter]
were just walking down the street. I wasn’t in Camelot and I
wasn’t associated with UFOs, and I wasn’t studying them
or any of that stuff. We were involved in music and art and things.
just turned to me and said: Well,
you’re just like an ET or something.
And I was like... I was hurt by that. [laughter]
I thought: Oh, my God.
What is it I’m doing and saying that’s so odd that these
people are like that and saying that about me?
then, I also knew exactly what I was doing. I knew about Eastern
philosophy and I was tested in college, in a class, by a person who
was from India. I wrote some kind of essay and he read it to the
class and he said: Well,
you know all about this stuff.
And I had never read a book about it at all.
But anyway, I decided that I would reach enlightenment. [laughs] It
was my decision when I was like 21 or something... I was just going
to do this.
I just got some books on Kundalini and so on, and then I sat and
meditated. I ended up meditating every day for like hours and hours
for probably a month or so. I stopped kind of going to work and
everything else. And I did... I reached kundalini samadhi,
what’s called a samadhi
experience, and merged with everything.
I did all this very consciously. I knew I was going to do it. I
planned it and I did it, you know? So I have to say I would classify
it more [as] spiritual experiences, like I came at the UFO thing from
a more spiritual place.
But, you know, my family was camping in Lake Tahoe and it was Fourth
of July or something like that, and we were just having a camping
trip and sleeping under the stars. I don’t know how old I was,
maybe in my twenties or maybe thirties at that point.
up in the sky were all these… well, they looked like stars,
but then they just started moving around, and they were all moving. I
mean, it just went on for hours and we were just watching and I said:
Look at all the UFOs!
was the only one in my family who knew anything about that and I
directed their attention to that and then we just watched it. It was
like they were having a party, basically, in space, because all the
stars were not just sitting there. They were all just moving around
and going places and zipping back and forth. It was like they were
having a huge meeting.
For everyone to see?
Well, my family.
Yeah, okay. It was not just you who saw it.
It was a display.
Yeah. It was just going on and on but they were way far up there, so
they looked like stars, but they literally were zipping around. So
that was fine. That was just like normal, or it just seemed normal,
you know. It didn’t seem like a big deal.
To you! But to your family it was extraordinary, I reckon?
Well, they didn’t get all excited or anything.
I mean, we were laughing about it, just laying in our sleeping bags
kind of laughing about it and stuff. But they don’t consciously
seem to think about this kind of thing that I’m involved in,
Camelot and all that. They don’t even know.
mean, they know. I’ve said: Go
to my website, blah, blah, but
they don’t go. One sister isn’t online at all and she’s
the one that would be... I mean, she’s open to things. She’s
fairly psychically aware.
My other sister has had, I think, experiences. You know how they say
these abductions, whatever, run in families? I do believe we have had
that in my family.
My mother was quite interesting. She was very aware and open to all
sorts of spiritual things, but at the same time, you know, she also
was very conventional in certain ways.
to answer your question, I haven’t had any... other than I see
light beings all the time. I actually saw a couple, not last night
but the night before, before we went on stage. Two of them came. They
visit me for a while and then they disappear. I’ve seen them
since I was in my twenties.
They’ve accompanied me to places. And whenever I would be in a
state where I’d be very upset, you know, because I was a sort
of struggling actor and lived in New York City and studied acting. I
didn’t have any money and I didn’t always know if I could
eat that day and I hated borrowing money from my parents, so I
wouldn’t tell them, and so on and so forth.
I had some rough times and they were always… they would come
and visit me.
Okay. So your initial experience in your dreams were very
That one, yeah, when I was a really little kid. And I was afraid of
Santa Claus. I know this sounds stupid [laughter] but when Christmas
would come and, you know, this was when we were really young, and
they would say: Oh, Santa
Claus is going to come.
Santa Claus came, supposedly, and flew in the sky, right?
So I just remember thinking to myself: Oh.
Well, if there is such a being as Santa Claus, I’m not
interested in looking out the window or letting them know that I’m
awake. Because they were
going to, you know…
Because they were going to do something.
Yeah, I was afraid of something.
But your overall feeling after all those years, would you label it
as more positive or more negative?
Well, I am not convinced of what was going on then. There’s
some other things that I’ve just put together recently which
have to do with MILABS, which is when…
Yeah. My whole family, all the kids in my family -- there’s
four of us -- were born in a certain hospital, except for me. I was
born in a military hospital in Palo Alto near Moffett Field, which is
a military base.
And I always thought: Well,
I’m special. I was born in a special hospital. You
know, different than everyone. But I never put two and two together.
recently I’ve been thinking: Well,
isn’t that interesting.
My father was a pilot in World War II. He built his own airplane. He
was quite brilliant in his way and I don’t know what that’s
I’m sure my mother would have no idea. She would say: Oh,
that’s ridiculous. Nothing went on. But,
it was just like a weird little thing that went on there.
if you put that together with the guy with the overcoat and the
buzzing and whatever, maybe there’s something that went on
But who knows?
And maybe we can never know these things.
Yeah, maybe. You have an overall feeling if it’s more right or
if it’s more something you don’t want.
Yeah. Now when I look back on it I’m sure that this is
probably an overall positive thing that I was very involved in. But
at the same time I’m also, you know… I’m aware
that there are positive and negative beings. Like, I have no doubt in
my mind whatsoever.
could be that this comes from my own past of having been exposed to
them on different levels. I’m psychically aware of a lot of
things going on. I see things and… pretty much have kept it to
myself, even now in Camelot, you know.
This isn’t the kind of thing that we talk about even to each
other, because our focus is external to ourselves, and it’s on
It’s not meant to be about us, you know.
Yeah. But it guides us, I have to say. I mean, I will tell Bill
things that we need to do, or this or that, because I’m getting
a direct, very strong message. And he gets this occasionally as well.
And I think that in many ways we are protected on an Earthly level,
but I think we’re very protected on an unseen level.
I think one of the things that unites us, which I’ve only
recently really realized is unusual, is that we have no fear.
None at all. Absolutely none.
That’s quite extraordinary.
The idea of us having fear is so unusual that we don’t even
think about the fact that we don’t have fear. We just do our
thing. It’s other people who point out: What,
aren’t you afraid?
Yeah, I have trouble understanding, to some degree, some people.
That isn’t because I’m not afraid of anything, you know.
I’ve had times in my life where I’ve been alone, and sort
of a desperate situation, whatever.
I mean, when that spider appeared in… [looks directly at
When I moved to New York City from California... [to Bill] Stop it!
[laughter]. When I moved to New York City…
Spiders are a big problem.
Oh, okay! [laughter]
I don’t like spiders. But I moved to New York City when I was
a kid, you know, like in my young -- I don’t know, I was in my
late twenties -- to study acting. And coming from Northern
California... if you know anything about that...
know, I grew up in Northern California, and that’s a “certain
kind of a person”. Like Northern California, we have sort of a
thing about that. We’re, like, cool; we’re very advanced,
That’s why The Sixties happened, really happened, in San
Francisco and this whole…
Apple Computer and the whole thing…
Yeah. I grew up near Apple Computer and all that.
The fancy part of the world. [Kerry laughs]
Well, I don’t know, but when I moved to New York, it was a
complete drastic difference, to hit the streets and have zillions of
people everywhere and also to go in the subway and stuff. It was very
intimidating for a young, sort of blondish person, a female
especially. So in that sense I knew fear. You know what I’m
But in terms of Camelot, it’s just not even a second thought.
I don’t know why. I just know that we…
other words, I will do and say just about anything. We’ve been
told, like I was just told a number of times recently that I’d
be killed if I said certain things, and I’ve said them. You
know, we’re not stupid, I have to say, but by the same token
it’s like… you know.
You get a lot of requests, I think, from whistleblowers to get on.
You determine which one you give stage and which you don’t. And
it’s probably all intuitive because no story is actually
Yeah, we do have…
Well, more or less? And you have to make, constantly, choices: Do
we give stage or don’t we?
Do you decline a lot? Do you get a lot of requests: I’m
a whistleblower and I have a story and…
We get a lot of people writing to us saying: I’m
the most important person in the world. I had this special ET
sorry, but it’s very common. We get zillions of emails of this
type. Just recently I was looking at my inbox. We had two people
writing to us saying: I
want you to interview me. I’ve got this most important story.
And it’s just your typical abduction experience.
Now, this needs a caveat
because we’re not trying to minimize or marginalize anyone
who’s had a very important personal experience. What Kerry’s
really talking about, I think, is context, and some people, for
understandable reasons, they have trouble integrating their own
But it is important to say that this is worldwide. What happens is,
everyone has a special thing because it seems special to them. But we
actually get, I have to say, we do get people writing to us saying:
I’ve got The Message for the planet.
is really what they say and what they think; they think they are The
One. And this is a
pitfall in this world that we’re in.
of the bell-ringers for us in evaluating whether or not to talk to a
person is how... what happens is, a real whistleblower comes across
very subtly, very buttoned up.
They rarely tell us everything in the first email. They write to us
and they say: I have a
couple things to talk to you about. I wonder if…
it’s a one-liner. Sometimes they’ll put in one word that
might be like a covert way to see if we’re awake and aware and
whether we pick up on it. So it’s a fascinating process, what
goes on in terms of people communicating to us.
other part of that is that, in a sense, we’re not really a
website for abductees and contactees.
No, no. No.
That’s actually not our area of expertise, or the area that
we’ve decided to focus on.
We really have decided to focus on whistleblowers that come out of
the, sort of, black projects. But, on the other hand, what has
happened is that some of our researchers, some of the people that we
have been attracted to interview for intuitive reasons, have had ET
experiences and contact and channeling and so on.
Yeah. I really like the broadness of the spectrum you cover in your
We don’t have a strategy or a plan, you see. These things come
at us in a very holistic, integrated way. Things just happen, almost
like there’s some kind of a script being written, in an
esoteric sense. What we do is we just go with the flow.
both feel, intuitively – it’s exactly what Kerry’s
said – we get a message, sometimes, because we both get all of
our mail. We both hone in on the same message saying: This
message here, have you read that?
she’d say: Yeah.
I’ve just read that this moment. This person feels important.
almost invariably that’s significant.
But I term it as, in a sense, we are following the trail of a
mystery. We’re going where the trail and the clues lead us.
That means that even right now we cannot tell you...
not going to rule somebody out because you say:
Oh, this person’s in the health field, or this person’s
in the such-and-such field. Actually,
there is no area that we won’t go in, but it only depends on if
we get the push to follow the clue and to go in that direction.
logically... like there’s some people who collect all the
interviews with everyone who’s ever talked about such-and-such.
Right? And ever written a book about such-and-such.
don’t actually do that. We don’t duplicate. What we’re
doing is actually following a trail. So if we get one person in a
certain area, that one person is very well chosen, at least from our
point of view. Okay?
Yeah, and you can feel it. To follow you and your work, it’s
quite extraordinary, actually. Yeah. I really encourage you to…
We like to see the big picture. We want to paint the big picture, so
each is a piece of the puzzle, they’re not duplicate pieces.
I also like that you don’t have the same opinion always.
Never. [Arjan laughs] I mean, it’s funny because we will agree
on intuitive sort of messages sometimes, but in terms of overall
approach it’s drastically different. He’s more the
scientific -- we say Mulder
Scully from X-Files
-- only he’s Scully
and I’m Mulder, because he’s the scientist and I’m
more the intuitive communicator.
On the money thing, how does money work for you? Because a couple of
months ago, a couple of weeks ago, I read on your blog [that] money
is a problem. Everybody has to make a living and here we have two
beautiful people doing most extraordinary work for waking up the
planet to a certain story.
is your view on that? Why does everything at the core of your work
have to be free? I mean there must be some way to somehow support you
more by the people that watch your videos. I think, I might imagine,
that you could do better and more if you had less worry about money,
in a way.
Hmm. Let me answer this first. There are different ways to go at
this, and it’s an interesting question.
me, it’s about a philosophical reversal of the principle of
money, which is based on exchange. If I’ve got a coffee shop, I
give you the cup of coffee and then you give me three Euros or three
dollars or whatever it is, and that’s the exchange.
I say to you: I’ve
got the cup of coffee here. I’m not going to give it to you
unless you give me the money first.
That’s how it works. Or, unless you agree
to give me the money first, and then it’s changed.
usually that’s the way business is done. And the way that
things are sold on the Internet, often it’s like you’ve
got a DVD, or you’ve got a video, or you’ve got a book,
and it’s like: Okay,
you give me the money, then I’ll send you the information.
Okay. Now, what we’ve done is we’ve put it in reverse.
It like we’ll give you all the information and we trust that
it’s going to come back to us. And maybe I give you the
information and he gives me the money. It doesn’t matter.
doesn’t matter who gives us the money, you see, because it’s
the principle of flow. The principle is that we give people whatever
we have and then, if the Universe is playing fair, and it seems to
be, then we get a return.
You may remind people more of doing that. For example, if I look at
myself, I made like four or five times, a small donation, and I
expect maybe everybody does that, but, apparently, it doesn’t
I was reminded more often in a video, at the end of a video for
example, to make a donation, then I probably would have done it more
Yeah, our cameraman is very pleased that you just said that because
this is his advice to us, and we’re going to start doing this.
It was his idea. That’s why I’m bringing it up.
Yeah. Thank you very much.
But, for me, there’s a point here as well, you see. It’s
like that also becomes part of the process that we don’t think
about. It’s just like: Okay. This is like an article of trust.
We just trust it’s going to work that way, and then it does.
philosophical backdrop for wanting
to do it that way is because the information is not ours to sell.
It’s not ours. You can’t have copyright on this stuff.
People who think: Well, I own this information and I own the words in
this interview and I own my experience and you can’t have it –
this is very, very small, limited human thinking which is very old
only acting as a “channel” for this information, as a way
of getting this information out. It’s not ours.
So how can we sell something that doesn’t belong to us?
Maybe you shouldn’t think about that. I thought about
something yesterday and I want to bring that into the world with this
thought it maybe would be nice to make a kind of a tribute to Bill
and Kerry from all kinds of whistleblowers they’ve had, all
kinds of people that watch your videos. In Holland we do that a lot.
let’s say for example, the tsunami hit here. We have sixteen
million people and there was one TV show and we raised about 100
million Euros for that.
that’s an idea. Maybe someone will pick it up, maybe not.
That’s just an idea I had.
Well, thank you. I have to say that our philosophy on this is a
little bit different. We’re both aligned in the sense that this
material needs to be free at the outset.
it’s about is that, you know, we talked about it yesterday,
which is the idea of people not having access, whether it’s to
information or truth or secrets. So the last thing we want to do is
put a barrier there between the people and the truth that we want to
get out there.
we want that to get out there and Thank God for the Internet, because
it is there. It is a medium that allows us to do that.
we were completely in agreement from day one. Everything was going to
be free. Okay?
Mm-hm. That’s beautiful.
And that has to happen. In fact, we’ve been offered to do a
television show, you know, like on regular TV…
…although it didn’t actually happen. This was a year
then we were saying to the producers: But
you do understand that our videos are going to be free on Camelot? It
has to be that way.
on the other hand, we are... at least I am... more practical, because
I’m a filmmaker. What we don’t do is package DVDs and
what we need to do is do that. And those would go for sale, because
there is a labor and a cost to actually produce that.
Now, there’s a labor and a cost to produce what we do.
But we are kind of, like I said, guerilla filmmakers and we are
going on the paradigm that if we put it out there, it will come back.
I mean, we do believe that and it has worked.
I have to say, for the first two years, I had a small inheritance
from my mother passing and we financed -- we’re self-financed.
Then the last year, Bill’s mother passed and we had a small
amount of money from there that kept us going.
we also started asking for donations, I think now it’s been
almost a year and a half ago. Our Avalon site, we started charging
for subscriptions – a dollar! [laughs] or whatever you want, or
five dollars a month. But that hasn’t actually been all that
successful. People didn’t want to pay so much for being on a
forum and so on.
we try to convey to them that what that subscription was going to do
was go into the Camelot work, so that the information sort of fuels
everything else, right? Because anybody we interview is going to help
raise the level of consciousness, and also for the Avalon side of
things, which is the side which has to do with finding safe places,
preparing for the future in sort of a nuts and bolts way.
And we do have another site that we’re looking to do which is
called Project Light Warrior.
You mentioned that on the radio, yeah.
We are going to help people develop themselves, because beyond
developing your own safe place and getting into groups and
networking, there’s a side that is more spiritual about
preparing for the days to come. You need to become as enlightened as
you can be, and become as much of a spiritual warrior as possible.
And there we’ve got Yoda on the wall there, to remind us.
Exactly. Because what we’re facing is much more of a spiritual
experience. It will manifest physically, here on the material realm,
on the 3D, but the real sort of nuts and bolts battle, if you will,
will happen for the hearts and minds of humanity.
that is what we want to help, in the future, to equip people along
There is a spiritual war going on. It’s just that right here
and now on this planet, this seems to be one of the front lines.
That’s one way to put it.
So you can’t put a price on that. You can’t say... you
know. We really must educate people; we must make them become aware.
We must encourage them to do so. So that’s where there’d
be no barrier to entry, no matter what.
we have been approached... Some people don’t want to look at
our videos because it’s hard to stream and it takes time and
we’ve had all logistical things go on, so they want to purchase
a DVD, or even to hand it out to family and friends.
In that sense we’ve actually been pretty remiss, because we
can’t lay out the money it costs to pay for, I don’t
know, thousands of DVDs to be printed, and then put it on our site
and sell it, and all this kind of thing. We actually are very bad in
that area and we know it.
in a sense, we could be more sort of proactive in funding our work
than we are.
I think many people would really like to support you in that way.
Well, thank you.
But the principle of funding would always be adding
value, not saying: We’re
not going to tell you unless you pay us.
The information would always be available, but, for instance, the
advantage of a DVD is that the quality is higher.
The thing about Avalon is that, even though we charge a
subscription, you can see everything that’s available on the
site for free, you just can’t post. So it’s just really
important to us.
Another analogy is going into a new relationship, which is that if
you go into a new relationship thinking What
am I going to get out of this?... it’s
probably not going to work.
you go into a new relationship thinking Okay,
this is a wonderful opportunity to give something, to give love, and
then maybe I’ll get love back.
if you go looking for love because you need something, it probably
won’t work. You need to flip it around in the way that I tried
to describe a couple of minutes ago.
basically the way that, I think, we both live our lives. It’s
like we’re trying to give something, and we’re not trying
to make ourselves be special. It’s just because it’s a
job and it needs to happen.
not the only ones. We’re part of a huge team of people who are
doing this, each in their own way.
This probably relates to your not having fear. You don’t
experience fear. I wondered about that, too. You’re in a field
where it’s very easy to get frightened, and apparently you
don’t feel that.
think that, in a way, if you can look at your own shadow, you can
look at the shadow of the world, and apparently that’s what
you’re very good at. But is there a way in which your personal
lives are being mirrored in the events taking place in Project
Um… I’m not sure how to answer that. I mean, I’m
not sure what the question is, in a sense. But in general I would say
that what happened with Camelot is that we actually met each other as
friends and started on this journey and decided to do Camelot “just
like that” [snaps fingers] when we went to Tintagel in England,
you know, the home of King Arthur.
were inspired by the idea of a Round Table in which there is no
Everyone’s equal. There’s no special person sitting at
the head of a round table, you see. It doesn’t work like that.
We decided that was going to be sort of our motto for what we were
creating. The other thing was that we had very little money, and I
had this little consumer-grade camcorder that was going to be our
interview tool, right?
we both came from that grassroots idea and we stuck with it. But it
also became all-consuming, I have to say.
I reckon. Yeah.
Or at least for the last maybe three years, up to a certain point.
Maybe more recently, it changed.
basically, we would work all the time. I mean, like, until eight or
nine at night, and if there was something going on, then we would
work later. You know, it was the kind of thing where it’s like
a start-up company, in a sense.
was a labor of love. We were involved in it all the time. It is in
every aspect of our lives. And this is still the case most of the
I don’t know, nine months ago then, Bill got in a relationship.
Because we were both single, also. A weird thing that happened was
that when we formed Camelot, we didn’t have families and people
depending on us. and all this kind of thing.
And children and jobs and…
So, we were both totally free and we both sort of said:
I’ve got this skill-set. He’s got this skill-set. What if
we put them together?
both wanted to see Disclosure. We both said: What
we’d like to see in the world, let’s create that.
Okay? So we started out doing that. We had no idea we’d be
successful at it. We didn’t even know what we were doing.
people and things... it just came at us. Also, we said: Oh,
let’s interview Dan Burisch, because people don’t seem to
understand what he’s all about.
And we love… well, I love going into controversy, so we just…
And you’re quite successful at that! [laughter]
But we didn’t know if people would say: Get
out of here! No I’m not doing it. Who are you? Why should I
listen to you? ...
that type of thing.
wildly, we seem to disarm the people very easily, and they invite us
to their houses, and they would tell us their stories, then they
would break into tears and then... You know, Bob Dean. I mean, he
never broke into tears in his life in front of a camera until he was
Oh gosh. That’s extraordinary.
I have to say that’s a compliment, you see, because the trust
But to answer the original question, because I kind of diverged
[laughs]… is to say that, really, Camelot became 24 hours.
Yeah. We’re running almost out of time. I would like to ask
you the question: What is the most extraordinary video or photo you
saw in your life?
Oh, I don’t know. What do you mean by extraordinary? You mean
something outside that we haven’t done? Like something that
inspired us? Or are you talking about what we’ve seen and what
What you’ve seen, like, from witnesses, from other worlds, or
like NASA pictures or of Mars. Or have you ever visited an
underground base or seen some physical evidence of black projects or
what? Something like that.
Oh, interesting. Hmm.
Let me start while you think. [Kerry laughs] I don’t know
whether you’ve seen these photographs yet. Have you seen the
photograph with the car being dematerialized?
Yes. That was quite interesting. This was somebody who came up to us
at a recent conference – he does not want publicity for this
yet – with a series of photographs which showed, very clearly,
a car disappearing into some kind of a portal...
...in a whole series of events that he could barely understand. He
didn’t want this information out because his colleague, who was
with him at the time, who actually took the photographs, then
received one of those “visits” that you’re not
meant to enjoy very much when he was in America.
But that’s just a little... I mean, this is just one weird
phenomenon. That kind of thing probably happens in laboratories in
Los Alamos all the time, as far as we know, we have no idea. But it
was quite fun to see it in a picture.
Well, I would say that, I think it’s called the STS 40 or
whatever. There’s a video out there.
It was shot by NASA, in which you actually see them shooting at, you
know, you see them fire at a UFO.
I would say that, as far as all the footage I’ve seen, all the
crazy photographs... and I’ve taken photos of UFOs, too, by the
It’s on our site under Shorts.
A lot of people don’t see that, but I interviewed... It was one
of my earliest interviews before Camelot, and I interviewed a lot of
researchers, a lot of people: Jim Marrs, Rich
Dolan and so on.
I knew to shoot at the sky. I clicked pictures of a whole series of
UFOs. They made a design for me. It’s quite extraordinary. If
you go to the site, you’ll see it. And then I did have that
in Switzerland, Lake Geneva.
This whole video is on Youtube.
But I would say the STS, them shooting... because I think that that
was, I mean, there’s evidence that there’s something
going on here between the Earth and the beings out there and what
they think they’re doing.
don’t know how old that is, but it’s not from The Fifties
No, that’s 1990-something.
So they’re still trying to shoot at things. As much as, with
all due respect, Bob Dean says: We
found out we couldn’t shoot at them.
We’re still trying. So maybe we’re succeeding once in a
while, I really don’t know, but there’s something going
BR: Let me just add something as a
comment to your question about interesting videos or interesting
send us photographs all the time. Some of them really are quite
interesting, but I think that’s not the point, because in my
opinion we’re way beyond trying to prove to the world that
these phenomena exist.
say over and over again, I love the analogy that we’re like
fishermen on a south sea island, a little island. And we catch the
fish, and we go in our boats and, you know, that’s our world, a
don’t think that there’s anyone else in the world. All we
see is the sea all around us. We’re the only people in the
now and then we see a metal bird, or somebody, some crazy person,
says that they see a metal bird. Or some crazy person climbs a tree
and says that they see a big metal ship on the horizon, and everyone
thinks that they’re crazy.
we run around trying to prove whether these things are real or not.
It’s like: Of course
real questions are, you know, who is in that metal bird? Where are
they going and why are they flying over our island? And what are
those people in that metal ship, and why are they sailing towards us?
Or why are they ignoring us? Or, you know, are they trying to help
us? Are they friends? Are they people like us? Does this mean that
there are other people in the world? Is there another island out
there in the sea somewhere? Who knows?
are much, much, much bigger questions rather than trying to prove
this stuff exists. It’s a given that these phenomena are real.
We don’t have to prove anything. It’s like I don’t
need to go out there and prove to you that there are cars in the
street. You know and I know.
I’m very grateful you come from that place, because that’s
actually… what you can feel, where you’re coming from in
this work and that’s very valuable, in my opinion.
Yeah. And people send us photographs of: Look!
I just saw this thing in the sky! And
it’s a little kind of thing. You magnify it with all the little
pixels and you can see something, it looks like a disk.
like, okay, there are 50 thousand pictures like that. We don’t
need… Of course it’s cool to have a picture, but that’s
not the point. That’s not the point.
think that that’s where we’re trying to take it...
There’s this English phrase that’s called “pushing
the envelope”. We’re not trying to analyze documents
from, you know, is Truman’s signature on this 1947 document
real or not?
Well, there are people out there doing that, and that’s fine.
It’s not to put that stuff down.
That’s okay. That’s what they’re doing. Yeah,
Evidence is great. In fact, we were told by Jake Simpson, he said:
Don’t ever take any
hard evidence if anyone hands it to you because, actually, that’s
why you’re safe.
other words, what we do is witness testimony, okay? We are not so
much interested in documents you can fake, photographs you can fake,
even photographs that are good.
Meier really has the corner on the best photographs probably in the
world, still, to this day. And we believe Billy’s story, okay?
We don’t think he’s a hoaxer, for the record. However, we
don’t think he’s the only contactee out there either.
there are pictures and I think, as time goes on, we’re going to
see more and more pictures. I’d love to have more pictures of
different beings and so on. I think that’s all wonderful. It’s
like they are
there; they’re out there. In fact, the truth is
not a problem. You can get the truth. All you have to do is know what
resonates and you’ll be there. And you can probably see it with
your own eyes from time to time.
It’s our thinking that needs to change and then the truth will
come when we’re ready for it. So we’re not trying to
convince anyone of anything; we’re not trying to present proof.
people write to us saying: Well,
how come this person says this and that person says that? They can’t
both be right.
we say: Look, we know
that. [Kerry laughs]
That’s not the point.
point is that we’re trying to... Let me phrase this correctly:
We’re trying to support people in their own growth process in
becoming more awake and more aware; to change their paradigm; to
change the way they look at the world; to allow
these things to change, so that this new world that we all want to
experience, or that many people want to experience, it starts in our
own concepts. It starts in the way that we see things.
we’re doing is really trying to present a new way of looking at
the world. It’s a little bit like if you’re zoomed very
close in on this object, which is my hand, and you’re just a
centimeter away from it, you don’t know what you’re
looking at. You’ve got to step way back and then you see it’s
you pull back again and then you see it’s an arm. Then you pull
back and then you see that it’s a body, which is me, then you
pull back again and you see us in this room. Then you pull back more
and then you see Amsterdam.
have to pull this camera back. We have to zoom out really far. What
we’re trying to do is we’re trying to encourage people to
see what we call the
bigger picture involves other planets. It involves what’s
happening on this planet at a control level. It involves other times.
It involves ancient civilizations. It involves such a huge range of
things that, if you look at any one of them too close, you’re
not going to see the big picture.
really why we’ve gone after this breadth, because the breadth
comes automatically when you pull back and see the bigger picture.
They go together.
That’s really what we’re trying to do. So we’re
not trying to prove anything. We’re trying to encourage people
to look upon the world in a different way.
the people who thank us – [to Kerry] this is my last word here
– the people who write to us to thank us, that’s the
energy that keeps us going. Earlier on we talked about money.
It’s wonderful to receive a donation, but it’s even more
wonderful to hear: You
know what? You changed my life.
the energy that gets me up in the morning ready to work hard.
Yeah, I have to say that’s true. Absolutely.
And the people who write to us saying: Look,
you changed my life. They
don’t say: You
convinced me that this document was real, or
you produced a really
say: You helped me look on
the world, and look on my place in the world, in a different way. Now
I see LIFE differently.
the important thing. That’s what’s at stake here. This is
what we’re trying to help people to do.
all of us, yourself included in this conversation, and all the people
who laid on this conference that we’ve just been at yesterday,
and many other people who will watch this
video and then pick up that
ball and run with it in their own way, in their own mission, in their
own job, because they’re also special... we’re all part
of a team here.
my closing words there. How about that?
Okay, yeah. I would say that we’re also presenting the
evidence out there. We’re putting the testimony out there of
human beings that you can watch and see and read their facial
expressions, and really get into the emotion, as well as the drama,
of this play that we’re involved in here.
think that that’s also the power of video.
Yes, very much.
In other words, I don’t think that we would… In some
ways Camelot came into being, because of the power of video and the
Internet, and getting that out there. In other words, if you read the
transcripts, I think you miss something.
really vital that people begin to develop their own sense of knowing,
and you can only do that using all the senses, okay? So if you can’t
be here in the room with us, we hope that whatever we convey on the
video will be a great substitute for that, such that you will be able
to kind of go there and be there with us, with the witness.
For your own discernment.
And I think that people do get that sense. What happens is they need
to develop discernment. That’s the key thing that, I think,
maybe Camelot can contribute to is laying it out there in such a way
that they begin to discern: Where’s the person telling The
Truth? Where’s the person telling, maybe, the
truth as they know it,
but it might not quite be right?
where is the person giving disinfo? Not because they intend...
because we don’t think any of our witnesses are giving
intentional disinfo, but where are they actually selling something
that they’ve bought a bunch of false information on?
is part of the big picture because there is a lot of falsehood out
there. What happens is nobody tells the whole truth and nothing but
the truth, because they don’t have the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, okay?
is so multidimensional, this experience we’re having.
Nobody knows it all.
Truth on this level could be false on this level because you’re
not seeing a whole lot of different things. And, as Richard Hoagland
says: The lie is different
at every level.
Nobody knows it all. It’s too big. No human being knows it
So this is why it’s so important to have, sort of, the wide
Yeah, and I’m very grateful that you give us the wide view. In
a sense, you’re a vehicle to fine-tune everybody’s own
discernment on a much different level than we were able to do without
I want to really thank you for doing that and putting your lives out
there on the line. Really great, great work.
hope that we will be able to enjoy much more of you and of the most
broad picture imaginable.
And that we will all see the day that we all know who we are, where
we came from and where we’re going to.
you very much for this interview.
Thank you. That was a lovely ending.
Yes, that’s a beautiful one.
Click here for the video interview
**Transcript provided by the hard-working volunteer members of the Divine Cosmos/ Project Camelot Transcription Team. All the transcripts that you find on both sites have been provided by the Transcription Team for the last several years. We are like ants: we may be hidden, but we create clean transcripts for your enjoyment and pondering.**