Project Camelot interviews Dane Tops
Los Angeles, September 2009
Some of you may have read on
our Questions page that I (Bill) have
experience in an offshoot of the original Church of Scientology.
But I was utterly surprised when a legendary
whistleblower in the Church of Scientology introduced himself
to me and told me that what he had to share had something
to do with Black Operations. Kerry, who has never studied
Scientology, agreed that this whistleblower was very much
in the ranks of regular Camelot whistleblowers. We decided
to do an interview.
bring you Dane Tops - an almost mythical figure
in Scientology history who has never before come forward
to tell his story - which is extraordinary even by Camelot
standards: all about how the Church of Scientology was taken
over in the early 1980s, and the courageous and astonishing
way in which Dane blew the whistle, which resulted in tens
of thousands of members realizing what was going on - and
leaving. Put the coffee on (a lot of it!), read carefully,
Dane Tops [D]:
I wanted to say that I have hardly ever run into anyone
who got involved with this subject - or offshoots of this
subject - after 1975, who didn’t have anything but
a very bad opinion toward the Church of Scientology. Personally,
I believe that before I (quote) “blew the whistle” the
place was already completely infiltrated by the Illuminati.
Their intention was to produce exactly that result (a very
bad opinion) on the general public. The Church was fully
corrupted and made a mockery of what it was intended to
be and started out to be. Goal accomplished.
reason it was infiltrated by the Illuminati is because
of the mind control techniques that could be developed
from the 1950 book that Ron Hubbard published, and soon
after because of the paranormal abilities that Hubbard’s
techniques were producing. The Illuminati thought it could
not allow humanity to discover their true innate powers
the 50s, those abilities were virtually unheard of. Today,
there are dozens of understandings in the general public
that were not extant then. I believe that Hubbard’s
discoveries and techniques filtered down into literally
hundreds of subjects from black ops (direct mind control
used for dark purposes) on to personal therapies, self
help organizations, new religions, cults and into general
medical literature now considered standard knowledge.
the ’40s Hubbard discovered and demonstrated that
there is no memory that cannot be recovered. That was startling
and unbelievable. At that time he developed techniques
to have people recall memories that occurred at birth AND
from conception onwards. Memories were verified for accuracy
with, for instance, the doctor at birth. Or with the parents
for incidents that happened during the pregnancy. He developed
techniques that allowed anybody to
recall anything in
their history with a little work. We’re not talking
about imagination; we’re talking about literally
verified birth and womb memory: full conversations, and
he did this work in the ’40s, and he wrote about
it in a book called Dianetics, a Modern Science of
Mental Health in
1950. The book was a best seller. Russia tried to contact
and hire him and the reason Russia wanted him was because
they recognized that the techniques in that book could
be reversed so that they could develop psychic warfare
and mind control techniques.
Russians realized that the out of body perceptions that
Hubbard was developing could be used to spy and collect
information from remote locations. The Russians saw that
the power of the mind could be focused remotely to influence
the thoughts of others at a distance. Russia started testing
their children and developing the ones with the most skills.
The US followed.
Camelot, I now realize that at that time - in the 50s -
we had just recovered ET bodies in crashed disks. I now
see the Russians and the USA were interested in Hubbard’s
techniques not due to mutual animosity, but because the
governments were really scared about the ET problem. If
they’d told Hubbard what was going on, he would have
been happy to help and would have done a lot better job
of it than our governments did. Hubbard already knew more
about the ETs than the governments did, because people
were recovering memories of many various races of ETs,
of interplanetary wars or prior earth histories of wars,
of intelligent robots, clones, cyborgs - you name it. But
Russia wanted to use Hubbard’s material without TELLING
him what was happening with the influx of crashed disks
and recovered ET bodies that escalated immediately following
the bombing of Hiroshima.
the early 60s, Hubbard was teaching the general public
openly about his independent discovery that this universe
was heavily populated with intelligent life and various
life forms and body types. The crashed alien disks would
have been SOP [Standard Operating Procedure] to him. He
could have really assisted the governments to do a lot
better job of it, rather than to screw up the entire theme
of contact the way it has been. He would not have been
technically overwhelmed by the ETs. He would have sent
out ambassadors to access their intent, and these would
have been people who had accessed their own memories about
the various races populating the universe and who were
getting re-acquainted with their history.
efforts to hire him were intense. He was presumed to be
someone who could be utilized to develop any number of
psychic abilities, warfare abilities and spying abilities.
The US versus Russia cold war was not real except to the
lower level people. It was a distraction for the public.
All this time, UFOs were freely infiltrating US and Russian
airspace. The entire cold war was a front and actually
the US and Russia were united behind the scenes, at the
top, in fighting and attempting to “catch up” with
the feared common unknown potential enemy, the ETs.
the intent to procure him started in the 1950s after the
book was published. During the ’50s Hubbard’s
provable discoveries about the mind/body/spirit were unheard
of. During that time the kinds of results that were being
standardly produced on people – my friend here amongst
them [Ed. note: present at the interview, anonymity
who saw many of these things – were an enhancement
of what in common language is known as psychic or paranormal
people had levitated, some had seen through solid matter,
and others had gone outside of their body with full perception
of where they were. When the Russians failed to hire Hubbard,
they broke in his home, stole the material, and altered
the techniques to begin the Russian mind control programs
with the USA doing the same later.
of using his techniques to naturally develop psychic abilities
and to recall our past lives and in-between life memories
as Hubbard intended, the governments extracted from Hubbard’s
works what he’d discovered that has been done down
through time to control human behavior through force.
the modern subject of mind control and Manchurian Candidates
and much more was re-researched and developed to a fine
art form. As best I know, the techniques were largely “inspired” from
Hubbard’s material. I say that because the techniques
that have been used, such as the Montauk Chair, are described
in detail in Hubbard’s work. That sort of chair has
been used down through time and is in our memories from
way back. There’s nothing new under the sun. We’ve
all been around for a long time.
recovered from many persons the same memories of how to
control the mind by force and hypnosis. He wanted to undo
the effects on all of us by training a world-wide army
of people skilled in helping mankind to recover their memory
of having a veil put over their minds to the point that
we do not know our own past.
was known by Hubbard and completely acknowledged by the ’50s
that we were, or that each human was a spiritual entity,
not a body, nor a mind; that all of an individual’s
history was recorded in energy patterns in their body cells,
but also around their bodies, which he defined as the Mind.
He discovered anew that mankind goes forward from life
to life to life and memory record is taken forward with
the spirit entity or soul which is each person’s
complete self. That each person IS a soul rather than HAS
a soul was his new major definition of what man IS. In
the 50s, this description of the soul was not common.
thing Hubbard did prove that was... well… he went
on a trip around the world to test that his memory was
accurate. He went to different locations to verify that
just by his recall the memory of locations he had never
been in this life was accurate.
came out of an era where there were people called Spiritualists who
contacted the dead. There were a lot of séances
in the US: it had become all the rage. There are newspaper
accounts of someone in England in the 1860s doing body
levitation and flying out of one upper story window and
into another one [Ed note: this was Daniel Dunglas
a researcher and author who had psychic abilities, actually
killed an animal 40 miles away; that’s documented
and witnessed. So Hubbard heard about all these things
during the era he grew up in. He wanted to find out how
these abilities came about, and what the explanation for
it was and how come people were reported to do these things.
He wanted to understand it scientifically.
researched healing techniques and discovered that trauma
and pain in our past really affects us negatively and that
those effects can be reversed and that they were the cause
of all psychosomatic illness or accidents in accident-prone
people. His discoveries were phenomenal. The techniques
for a full and total recall of past-life memories came
soon afterwards. Then, the research to develop psychic
abilities to the point that one could see through walls
and access all their prior knowledge; do any number of
psychic phenomena; these were the kinds of things that
were being developed in the ’50s and early 60s.
Swann was part of the same era. He was still there in the ’70s
when I was involved, in Los Angeles, coming up through
Bill Ryan [B]:
What do you mean by levels?
Well, in Scientology, they had grades you went through
where you progressed from ability to ability to ability,
and so Ingo Swann was going through those grades, those
levels. There was a magazine that was put out by the Church
of Scientology where people that went through these levels
would write things that they experienced. Almost every
month Ingo was in this magazine with what he had done next,
alongside others who were also getting these sorts of results.
who would report their results, such as moving a car sideways
to avoid an auto accident, seeing through walls, going
out of the body with all the perception to see and hear,
levitating themselves, making things materialize, like
that [snaps fingers],
healing a chronic illness or a personal relationship that
seemed to have been permanently destroyed.
were some extraordinary healing stories. Later he had to
retract any claims that the techniques could heal due to
the AMA [American Medical Association] and
the psyches [psychiatrists], with
whom he ended up in a lifelong battle. At first he offered
his discoveries to psychiatry, until he realized that many
psyches just wanted to drug people, do lobotomies and use
he organized his own black ops within his organization
in order to expose harmful psychiatric practices with so-called “healing” techniques.
His organization spied on the IRS and published records
of their crimes. He sent infiltrators from his Church into
the IRS to spy. They were quite successful.
the governments had not succeeded in hiring Hubbard, they
did hire Scientologists who had demonstrated paranormal
abilities. They were not hard to find because Scientology
published articles about what people were achieving.
was hired by the government. I mean, he went to work in
a program at the Stanford Research Institute with a number
of other Scientologists to study paranormal things. I remember
reading an SRI report that they were having Ingo heat up
objects and measuring how hot he could make them. And that
was just the start of what he could do.
Ingo was doing was not different from the things that a
lot of us were doing as a result of the training and what
Hubbard named processing, or auditing.
That’s what he called it. Hubbard often used computer
terms and terms that made it seem very mechanical. But
really what we were dealing with and what the discovery
was that we were dealing with was a spirit, a spiritual
being, and that’s what we are; a spiritual being – an
immortal spiritual being with any number of godlike abilities.
Ingo became famous as the father of remote viewing, a watered-down
word for what he was actually able to do and which many
of us were doing, which wasn’t “remote” viewing – but
it was out of body: going out of your body with perception,
more perception sometimes than you had IN your body. These
techniques can be used to keep developing control over
time and ultimately control over the dimension that you’re
Somebody I knew described it as more like knowing whatever
you want to know because you decide you want to know. That’s
actually what Hubbard coined the word Scientology as – it’s
the study of knowing how to know.
Yes, knowing how to know. Well, actually, he didn’t
coin the word. You can find in the ’30s in a German
book “Scientologie” - spelled differently -
with the rudimentary version of what became the Scientology
Axioms [Ed. note: Scientologie, by Dr. A. Nordenholz,
discovered many things on his own but he put together amazing
things, like... He ended up having to lie and say he was
the sole developer of it all, an unfortunate solution for
a problem he was having managing his organization. I knew
the person who suggested that he lie and how it came about
that he did. He had started out acknowledging and giving
credit to many of his sources. There was no turning back
after he lied about it.
Kerry Cassidy [K]:
Somebody gave me that book. Scientologie.
You have it?
I have it, yes.
I’d love to see that. It’s got the original
version of a brilliant work called The Axioms of Scientology. Brilliant
work. There’s another work he has called The
which I find even...
I have it.
I’d love to see the book. I haven’t seen it
It’s here in my library.
Sure. Its “knowing how to know”. I was just
making a comment that it is about knowingness rather
than acquiring... Acquiring data is like a lower harmonic
of this sort of knowingness, that one can sort of permeate
anything in the universe at any time and actually extract
that information if one’s operating at sufficiently – we’re
running into problems of vocabulary here – at a sufficient
level of consciousness, one can acquire and download that
Right. That’s true. Another way to do it is to re-access
our own memories. hat’s another way to know. But,
you know, to some degree you can get almost anybody to
do that. But, if one doesn’t go through some developed
discipline, one can’t master levels of energy and
success with mental and psychic discipline. And so these
discoveries were all happening then
in Scientology. It was terribly exciting. That was what
we worked on, these kinds of discoveries, at that time.
Okay. Can I just interject? Rather than a philosophical
discussion, it would be better if the point was made...
It’s not philosophical, because even in some of the
Camelot interviews... Who was the one that said: This
is the greatest secret of all, is the power you have and
who you are and what you are. This is the greatest secret.
Well, Camelot is saying that. We are saying that.
There was a witness also who specifically said that to
Bob Dean was talking about that.
I think what you’re referring to here is what Bill
Birnes described Admiral George Hoover as saying: The
greatest secret, actually, is the enormous power that all
human beings have.
Right. Now the trouble with Ron Hubbard was he discovered
this greatest secret within the realm of his studies and he
discovered techniques to develop enhanced abilities so
that he, with his techniques, was producing people who
could go out of their body, go in another room, look at
anything they wanted, and report accurately what was there.
He was producing people who could travel wherever they
wanted in the universe and report back on what they’d
seen, heat up an object – like they made Ingo do
when he went up to Stanford [laughs] – paranormal
and psychic... more than psychic... godlike abilities to
manifest, appear, disappear and KNOW things.
tells the story of how they gave him a job of going to
the moon. He called it remote viewing, but I assure you,
Ingo WENT to the moon! And that’s how the government
found out that there were ETs on the moon. And very aware
ETs, because Ingo quickly found out that the ETs who were
on the moon were able to sense that he was there, even
though he went there out of body.
abilities were why the governments wanted to hire him,
learn from him, and develop means to train others to do
the same. So Hubbard’s methods could enhance our
native natural abilities and could be used for spying operations
and war. But as I said, the governments were dealing with
ETs and they didn’t tell Hubbard that. The Scientologists
were recovering memories of our past, loaded with all kinds
of space scenes - Hubbard called it “space opera”.
Star Wars and Star Trek were really popular with Scientologists
as it was very real to us as our own past.
didn’t know there was contact in our own present-day,
however, and that our governments were going nuts trying
to find a way to make our technology AND our mental abilities
catch up with the ETs. Developing telepathy was an important
part of it all and Hubbard’s materials offered great
hope for the development of all these skills and more.
And that’s also why the governments wanted his research.
enhanced psychic abilities were being produced in Scientology
and Hubbard was busy describing the fact that we have such
abilities innately, and have been manipulated out of using
them by mind control. Russia stole his research and used
it to start their psychic development programs on their
did that too, but they were ahead of us, because the Russian
psychic programs took Hubbard more seriously. Hubbard casually
mentioned the theft of his research materials during a
when Hubbard refused to play along, he became a target
TO be feared by the government. They didn’t the public
to recover these enhanced abilities, only those children
the put into the programs. In addition, they began to recover
technology from the ETs about how to control the minds
and bodies of mankind.
choices about how to utilize all this new knowledge were
poor as they were too uninformed about our history in the
universe. That’s were Hubbard could have been of
far more use to them. So, he became a target to be feared.
The governments didn’t want an army of Scientologists
capable of knowing what was going on for real.
Hubbard went on the run and ended up getting a fleet of
ships and escaping governments which were trying to stop
Hubbard. He thought he was targeted because he was using
his organization to spy on the IRS and the psychiatrists
and exposing their crimes. Hubbard didn’t fully know
the depth of why he was such a target.
wanted to use his material to develop abilities like the
ETs had - but the governments did not want the general
get those abilities! And the movement was exploding like
wildfire with centers springing up world-wide to teach
what Hubbard had learned and use his techniques. So Hubbard
lived on the ocean on a constant escape route, trying to
get away, directing research programs, developing the techniques,
and producing people who restored the innate abilities
they have as infinite spirits.
his purpose was... well, he said that mankind was going
to be destroyed soon if there wasn’t a massive change
in human consciousness, and he was trying to produce that
change using these techniques before it was too late. His
goal was to wake us up from our amnesia.
the Church of Scientology was destroyed from within by
the US secret government. I’m certain of this. And
it was done by the use of children.
time passed through the 70s, there were so many things
about Hubbard that indicated that he was tampered with
that indicate that either he was being cloned or he had
extraordinary but deteriorating abilities, or a combination
instance, there are reports of the different kinds of bodies
that he had, different wardrobes, fully different size
wardrobes. And on the ship, there were reports of somebody
being downstairs being taught in a room by him and upstairs,
he’s also upstairs working. And that sometimes he
was one height and size and the next day he was a different
I think, if I remember right, it was Geoffrey Filbert who
reported that. Isn’t that right?
Yes, I think so. He was one of the ones who wrote abut
Okay, now what I would like to ask is that you’re
saying that “based on information you were told.” In
other words, why do you know what you know? You might talk
a little bit about who you were in the organization.
friend: I was in it from the beginning. Ron’s character
stayed the same for many years. But in the late 70s it
changed and underwent a full turnaround. I don’t
know about cloning, but something happened to change him,
had a heart attack in the 70s, and they had to go ashore
in South America to take him to a hospital. It made no
sense, and was hidden from the people in the Church. His
personality underwent a drastic change. Maybe a clone was
substituted. In the last years, he was barely running the
Church at all and became interested in music.
was as if he abandoned his organization and the urgency
to save the planet - but he was still alive. He seemed
to go farther and farther away from even having an interest
in his mission, which had been all-urgent, all-important,
and a race against time to save the planet.
Well, okay. I didn’t know that cloning existed back
then. Until Camelot, I had no idea how developed human
cloning is. But whatever happened, he changed, and that
was obvious. There are a lot of ways to exert mind control.
Maybe that was it. But what we know beyond a doubt is that
he was a target, and that he was affected, and that he
went from fearless to fearful; from brave to paranoid.
back to the story, I knew lots of people that were high
up in the organization, including Hubbard’s family.
I knew people who worked directly with him from way back.
In the late 70s, Hubbard’s family was separated from
him, so they couldn’t see OR talk to him. His wife
was later put in jail, his children couldn’t reach
him, and he was isolated in order to take him down.
I was close to his children even after his wife, Mary Sue,
was jailed. And so I was able to observe the control and
manipulation on his family and hear the resulting upset,
confusion and betrayal, because they and everyone else
who was cut off thought that Ron was choosing to ignore
them and talk with them or see them.
couldn’t conceive that their powerful father was
an unknowing victim of black ops. I knew about the bags
of millions of cash dollars that were couriered from one
place to another. It took a lot of money to keep from being
captured by the government, a lot of money, and he just
used it as cash to escape and to fund his own reverse-spy
operations back on the government and to buy expensive
put up a good fight, but he didn’t know what he was
up against and how many resources would be used to take
him down. They made a big mistake not telling him about
the ETs. We wouldn’t have signed the treaty with
the wrong race of ETs if they had utilized his knowledge
and hired him directly.
started out with a sterling intention to help mankind,
but little by little his organization was infiltrated,
and massively infiltrated in the end, so much so that I
don’t even know if the person who eventually died
WAS the body of the original Ron Hubbard.
don’t actually know. and don’t have a way to
know. But we do know people that were near him very close
to the end, and he was a far cry from what he was in the
beginning. Since studying all that I have now, including
Camelot, I know we have had full cloning technology of
humans since the 60s from aliens, and how very much it
is now being employed for “problem leaders”.
They just get a new model whenever they are unhappy with
the old one.
What was your role in the organization?
Well, I had a job in the organization that I did. In my
job I was someone who heard a lot of things about stuff
that was going on because people would tell me things in
confidence and because of that I learned about things that
were going on.
You’re not answering the question because you don’t
want people to know what your specific job was? It’s
okay if you don’t want to them to know.
One of my jobs in the organization was called auditor,
which meant someone that listened to someone else talking
about their concerns and problems.
It’s a kind of therapist.
And who keeps a confidence.
But not a traditional kind of auditor that... there are
millions of auditors. You were just one of them, or something
No, Hubbard called it that. It was a strange name as far
as I’m concerned. An auditor was someone that used
his techniques to assist people to get their memory and
abilities back, the kind of abilities you really have as
a being – not only a human being, but as a spiritual
Okay, but there were many of those, right? And you were
one of them, right?
I was one of them.
How many were there approximately? Do you know?
I don’t know. Thousands, before the exodus. I really
Okay. What I’m trying to establish here is how you
said you were “up high” or you had “access
to up high” in the organization. What I’m trying
to kind of get at for the people who are going to read
this is: How high were you in terms of your job? And then
how high – you kind of indicated your informal access
was to family members. But how high were you in terms of
the formal structure?
you blew the whistle on an organization that you were a
part of. Right? You had a job in that organization on a
certain level, so I was just trying to figure out... Like
if you were going to paint a picture for people... if we
were saying something like this on the government and they
were the Secretary of State that would be a title within
that organization. They had a title. I don’t know
if you had a special title besides a general title such
It was a general title. I had a couple of general titles.
I was near the center of power, so to speak. When I discovered
corruption, my intention was not to expose their inter-organizational
crime and blow a whistle in order to destroy or hurt anything.
My intention was to repair.
why I wrote the letter - and if it couldn’t be repaired,
my intention was to at least set people free from was becoming
a kind of tyranny. I wanted it to inspire the power to
find who was behind it all and create the ability to stand
up against the structure that was authoritarian and taking
Hubbard and his organization down.
didn’t know then that it was the US secret government
destroying Scientology from within, and that’s why
it was so impossible to fight it. We - Scientologists worldwide
- were a strong group, united in a worldwide mission that
we all believed in, but we didn’t have a bloody clue
where to look for the hidden third factor.
the US black ops were the hidden third party. And indeed
many things that Hubbard predicted I saw come true - which
was, if the organization of Scientology broke up into splinters
and didn’t stay a united group that could maintain
the high quality and purity of the delivery of the techniques,
then Scientology couldn’t and wouldn’t maintain
its ability to produce a worldwide result.
indeed it did not. Now there’s many, they call them
splinter groups, many that lost the core of the subject
and its best features. But the parent organization lost
their values first, paving the way for a schism.
IRS and CIA and beyond now oversee the Church of Scientology...
the techniques have been watered down so that you don’t
find many many people achieving the kinds of results that
Church is no longer a threat, and Hubbard is a public laughing
stock, completely made to look like a criminal and charlatan
- using the very Scientologists who loved him to take him
down. They’re totally unaware that they were all
victims of a massive campaign to take down the Church of
don’t find as many people in Scientology now that
can go outside of their body and travel at will anymore
- or who even focus on that achievement. You don’t
find people that can levitate or move their cars sideways
on the freeway in an emergency. There was a massive public
campaign to make less of such accomplishments and turn
them into unimportant “tricks”, even in the
New Age movement. But at one time there were real physical-universe
results of accomplished enhanced abilities like these.
That’s what the government didn’t want: people
were finding out they did not have to be slaves of their
it took to destroy Hubbard and Scientology was a concentrated
calculated operation that turned members against the Founder
and against each other. It was the old divide-and-conquer
technique. The people of this planet have no idea the degree
of manipulation we are under. Our minds are studied like
rats in a maze and we’re all manipulated accordingly.
support of our leaders, or our protest against our
leaders, all falls into line according to the plans of
the controllers. The general plan is to break all sovereignty
completely and to allow the continuation of an ignorant
slave population. That ignorance was threatened by Scientology
and the benevolent ETs who came to warn us. Only waking
from our sleep can save us now.
said this very clearly early on: This is a prison planet.
We’re being imprisoned on the planet and our ignorance
is the main tool of our entrapment. There
were nuclear wars on earth a long time ago. Scientific
evidence came out that nuclear glass was being found every
place on the Earth and there have been other massive explosions
on Earth long ago.
evidence now that there were other civilizations here.
Many of the current group on Earth is implanted and hypnotized
here as prisoners. The people or the souls, or the actual
spirit beings we are that are here are not here by accident.
Many can’t get off the planet because we’re
held here in an electronic field of amnesia.
can’t wake ourselves up enough to gather the science
to deal with periodic cyclic Earth changes because we’re
so mind-controlled and so many of us live like Truman did
in the Truman Show. There’s a lot of
truth in that movie.
I would say that the principal mind control techniques
that were extracted from Hubbard, and now used on people
like Duncan [O’Finioan] and others in the super-soldier
program were originally developed using the discoveries
Hubbard made about how the mind works.
bet wherever he is, he is one angry guy now to have found
out what his discoveries have been used for. Hubbard found
similar things in the memories of thousands of people,
as they started to really recall their past: he discovered
that the way that these past-life and in-between-life “implants” are
most effective is to use electricity.
when a being is delivered a great deal of electronic voltage,
along with commands to behave in a certain way or to limit
themselves or selectively enhance themselves in certain
ways. People were recalling independently that electrical
and electronic techniques have been used to implant the
free soul out of body for literally millions of years.
messes with the auric and mental circuits, you could say.
Electricity is confused by the being with his own similarly
powerful energy. These implants confuse and destroy memory
and the person’s own power of energy production is
destroyed or limited.
is controlled. It’s been historically controlled
down through time. In the last few decades implants were
developed, once again, to a fine art form. Now our own
governments have it and use it to develop their push-button
assassins and other behaviors using electroshock, hypnosis,
chemical and other traumatic physical manipulation.
after Hubbard’s information came out about our ancient
history and what really happened, the governments started
using their SS psychiatrists to experiment with electricity
and use real-time mental and psychic implants to control
of children, the best subjects they could find, have been
kidnapped into such programs, because they’re prime
subjects with the most potential. Ron Hubbard called it ‘P-D-H-ing’ someone.
That means using Pain, Drugs and Hypnosis to control behavior
and to mind control them.
I’m convinced that in Russia and in the US in modern
times the techniques that now create super-soldiers, that
created the entire mind control program, started in this
1950s era - partly by studying Hubbard and recreating what
he discovered had been done to us that we had in the records
of people who recalled millions of years back in time and
saw that in the present, we’re about to repeat the
partly by reverse-engineering crashed disk technology and
partially by trading with ETs for technology. Hubbard put
out the knowledge that such techniques have worked throughout
our history, dating back millions of years. We just recreated
electric shock implants became popular by the 60s as routine
psychiatric tools. Seeing as we had SS psychiatrists directly
imported in [Project] Paperclip there were plenty of willing
psyches to do the dirty work in mind control, sex slaves,
messengers who relay political data and forget it like
a robot, and super-soldier prototypes. For behavior modification,
the making of assassins and sex-slaves and spies. We developed
the know-how to segment the person into different personalities:
that was developed to a fine art form.
when you study what’s happened to these super-soldiers,
what the psychiatrists were being hired for, to cause people
to behave in a certain way, using electronics – and
simultaneous hypnotic control or commands that are delivered
at the time that one is in the state of electric shock,
then that’s effective on a long-term basis, and that
is the way these super-soldiers are created.
plus chemical brain alteration plus deep commands are how
the behavior is modified. Mind control can be done through
pain without electricity too. The way the mind works when
commands are given during pain was discovered and written
up in 1950 by Hubbard in his first book.
a few years, the techniques were being creatively utilized
for the Dark Side. Nazi Project Paperclip doctors were
given the information to enhance their new employment in
the USA. History has repeated itself. At the same time,
there was a exploding populist movement to use these techniques
on ourselves, by partnering with another and using the
knowledge in the book.
Hubbard showed us how to reverse these techniques that
are sometimes done to us in between lifetimes for the purpose
of keeping our memories destroyed - to keep us in Earth
prison. He showed us how to recover knowledge of who we
are and what our personal histories are.
friend here has worked on undoing electric shock. I did
it with one person too... and what an
undertaking when it happens on one’s current body.
It takes skill, but there are methods to undo electric
shock: where the effect can be reversed, and memory and
body health can be restored.
it does require that you take it to the point of being
able to remove the spirit fully out of their body – because
the brain circuits are partly destroyed by that kind of
electronic application – so the person’s got
to have more than just a body healing.
if you can remove a being from his body, they have the
power to heal their own body and heal what’s happened
to their synapses, and, most of all, core spirit energy,
from those kinds of experiences.
I believe that it’s not what I did personally that
has to do with the whistleblower thing. It’s the
significance of who L. Ron Hubbard was and what he tried
to do about the world situation. He bit off more than he
believe that the US government is now under partial control
of a race of dark ETs - because the government did not
know how to evaluate which race of them to trust. The US
government and other governments took the information from
Hubbard’s work and they are using its dark-sided,
morphed modern versions to keep civilization from knowing
the very secret he discovered about OUR power. The new
techniques allow you to destroy memory, not recover it.
They allow you to dumb down a population, not wake them
ALL have these kinds of memories. We’ve ALL been
messed with. When memory is restored, we find that we ALL
end up remembering how we got here or were sent here through
these nefarious methods where we were implanted – implanted meaning...
while using electronics, we were given behavior modification
hypnotic control commands to keep our natural, real, true
abilities limited and to not really know who we are, where
we came from: to not have a memory that goes back millions
of years, like some of these ETs have. Right? And now some
whistleblowers and some ET contacts are acknowledging that
indeed this is a prison planet.
you can listen to recordings in the ’50s and ’60s
where Hubbard’s talking about all of this. Many people
in Scientology recovered similar independently derived
memories... we all have knowledge and memory: we can recall
the galaxy teaming with intelligent life and a huge variety
of life forms, and all the things that are now coming out
Hubbard would have LOVED Camelot! He would have offered
to demonstrate his techniques in public so people could
observe how memory is recovered. In fact, he did that for
the public in many demonstrations and lectures in the 50s.
the ’50s and ’60s we in the Church of Scientology
were talking about all this because we sat around remembering our
history. We loved Star Trek because we REMEMBERED its reality
as life in this universe! We remembered being in different
bodies, different races, being different kinds of ETs,
being robot bodies – you as a spirit occupying a
robot body or bodies that looked like dolls, or being at
what is a higher dimension, which is just spiritually,
really functioning at a higher level, and we have been
the fourth dimensional and fifth dimensional and so on.
I mean, all of that is a matter of restoring our memory
And for example, just to support what you’re saying,
in 2006 Bill Deagle in his Granada Forum lecture was talking
about the Illuminati being controlled by higher dimensional
Right. And, you know, these entities are looked at as pretty
frightening by normal humans, but it’s because humans
don’t have ways to become comparable to those entities
in power or in understanding: to have comparable abilities
to entities that are stuck in a repetition of (quote) “evilness” or “acts
of control, domination and power,” rather than having
their own freedom.
Okay, so that’s been established, and I understand
what you’re saying. Certainly he had those techniques
and he was aware of all of that. But I actually think that
the occult goes back a lot further than Hubbard. Hubbard
was born relatively recently, so those techniques did exist
in the occult in various disciplines. Do the illuminati
come from those disciplines?
As a matter of fact, Hubbard studied with Crowley. He studied
with Crowley, so the techniques to enter the dark side
did exist and he studied their application and what they
were, but the techniques to UNDO “the Dark Side” did
not much exist, and that is what Hubbard discovered. And
that was uniquely different.
he proved that memory could be recovered from the womb
and birth, many methods were derived to find these memories.
One of those is now well-known as Rebirthing. Hubbard was
the inspiration for many such things.
the brain was investigated after his book came out. Surgeons
touched parts of the open brain to see if certain memories
resided in certain parts of the brain. After Hubbard’s
book proved that the memories exist, there was an explosion
of studies and therapies and research, none of it now attributed
to his discoveries.
I understand. Okay, so given that, now let’s fast-forward
to you are a person within this organization, these things
are happening, these people are being trained to get, you
know, to basically free themselves using these techniques.
interested in Hubbard. So let’s now explain sort
of what propelled you to do what you were doing. In other
words, can you maybe chronicle just in a superficial way
to some degree or in as much depth as you want, what was
corroding the organization and how it came along and then
why... like something of the drama that brought you to
the place where you wrote this letter and then what the
Well, for a start I believe that I have had extraterrestrial
And the reason I say that – and I’ve only recently
come to the realization that it’s probably what happened – is
because the way that I accessed certain understandings
of the universe was that I had a great deal of revelation
about what happened to mankind at our inception, or at
the inception of the human race, and I went into various
states in which I could time-travel and be fully out of
my body and go where I wanted.
the reason I think there was ET intervention on me is that
I didn’t eat any food or drink any water for three
months, and I didn’t sleep for three months. During
that entire time, I was manifesting an extension of Hubbard’s
techniques that went beyond... that were a continuation
beyond what Hubbard did.
I realized some things that were stuck that
wouldn’t allow Scientologists to progress. I felt
Hubbard could progress and get out of whatever ailed him,
he had some problem and it was becoming undeniable that
something was deeply wrong with him. He had become paranoid.
Now I know why. It was well-founded. He had no idea of
the kind of technology used against him. The “hidden” factor
is what makes it so dangerous.
was very determined at that time, with a small group of
people I was working with, to get to him. But he was basically
held a paranoid prisoner in the desert in California [Ed.
Note: Gilman Hot Springs] and
we couldn’t get to him, He died shortly after in
a pretty nefarious, intentionally neglected and despicable
that level of ability I had for three months: not eating,
sleeping or drinking water... the abilities only stopped
short in that I could not stop breathing. I still had to
breathe, but all other body functions I didn’t need
anymore. I never slept, and I was more wide awake than
I’d ever been wide awake. During that whole three
months I experienced a continual amassing of knowledge.
I experienced being many places in many dimensions. I learned
much about our past, and there was a full transcendence
of time. I was in simultaneity without break for three
So you were working with a small group of people.
Actually I was alone when all this happened - not with
the others directly. I just didn’t see them and was
not in a state to be able to explain it to them.
know, we’re hearing about in Camelot how we are hybrids
and how we were genetically engineered. But it’s
more than genetic engineering, its also spiritual engineering,
and very precise entity engineering. And so, in that three
months I was shown, and
I never knew quite how it was I was shown, but I thought
recently it must have been that I was contacted, because
when I started to get this information there were many,
many, many beings talking to me that came to me in the
room and I thought: Why me?
I didn’t see that I had done very much to deserve
all that understanding and knowledge. But for whatever
reason, I downloaded this extraordinary information and
then I just understood a concept of stepping stones that
were an extension of what Hubbard did.
person in the little group broke it down and made further
discoveries. He wrote it up and taught others how to deliver
new techniques derived from these discoveries. But all
of what I received is not intact today in a delivery form.
Much of what I utilized and what I downloaded is still
with me. I’d like to see the work completed. Camelot
has been a revelation, as much of what I learned in the
download is being revealed by ETs.
You got information. What information?
Information about how the human race was constructed. Information
about missed steps in Scientology. Others have discovered
techniques to enhance Scientology, but all too often they
leave behind parts of it that should still be used.
discovered a crucial understanding that Hubbard had missed.
Most everyone in the subject back then had received new
abilities, but some went out of body and couldn’t
maintain the ability. Now I know what to do so that abilities
can be a magnified and maintained. I don’t have an
organization to deliver it, though, and my small group
never took it all the way.
And are you able to put that in words?
In words? What that technique is? Let me see... We are
each of us infinite in our abilities to create energy,
and we naturally have infinite energy, BUT when we do not
manifest it in a way that is free, it boomerangs on us
and our own energy fields are confused so that we can’t
actually use them.
when we can’t use them, we can’t manifest as
we are and so we lose abilities. Our infinite energy is
infinite. We must learn to direct and manage it or it turns
inward on us.
must learn to USE it, or the misdirected energy will abuse
oneself and others. We’re structured to flow energy
and manifest. We can’t NOT do that without removing
ourselves from life.
religions are based on dealing with our energies by removing
ourselves. Buddha did, and that is your life work then.
Not to live and manifest, but to remove and disengage to
end all suffering.
is not from living, but from not understanding that desire
and life and energy must be manifested as one really IS
in order NOT to become destructive.
you don’t know what you are, you can’t understand
your abilities and educate yourself in their happy utilization
and enjoy your gifts for pleasure, rather than pain.
got to become educated as the infinite soul you are. So,
from where we are, we need to successively deal with a
larger and varied energy field so that we can manifest
energy that’s more and more developed. Defining this
as the model of expansion was actually discovered by one
of us in the small group and written up in extensive files
along with training courses and techniques to begin to
deliver these abilities.
by increasing our own ability we can deal with these entities
we hear about that are these hyper-dimensional evil entities
and so on, we can connect to them. We have the ability
to go beyond, stand ground, and to talk to them, and to
communicate with them, and to assist them to get out of
their own repeating dark destructive patterns.
we can’t do that unless we go through certain processes
ourselves to reach these different levels – and to
undo what’s been done to us or what we’ve done
in our own past, which is keeping our energy boomeranged
against ourselves. Then we can again put our energy outward.
don’t know if that was clear!
Okay. That was the beginning. That’s interesting.
So from there you were working with a small... initially
you said you were alone and you kind of developed this
technique in which you could basically become a Breatharian,
in essence to live on air. And did you use sunlight at
all to energize yourself?
Yes. You could get nutrition from sun and air, and I never
got past that point of not eating, sleeping or drinking
water. My body got lighter, but I wasn’t levitating
except on one occasion.
Okay. So you’re using this, you’re doing this
on your own but at the same time you’re part of the
organization, I’m assuming.
Well, officially I was.
And then you were working with a small group.
And I was also working with a small group. Yes.
Do you want to say how small?
So, two other people.
Two other people. It takes basically a triangular energy
to generate power. Two terminals, Positive and Negative,
and a Ground. It’s good to work with three people
until you can do it yourself.
Do you still have those techniques? Could you get back
in touch with them, or have you somehow disconnected from
I intentionally recreated the necessity to sleep again.
I’ve always regretted it. I don’t sleep a lot
of the time. I sleep about three nights a week, maybe 25
hours a week. But that’s more than I would like.
It’s an entire structure that makes you sleep, and
it’s very exact. You have to know it, and you have
to know how to undo it, because it’s intentional
that we sleep, and it’s how we deal with all our
not fully conscious energy. Without REM [Rapid Eye Movement]
sleep. we go insane.
once you’ve dealt with these energies and contacted
and eliminated the automatic installed sleep programs,
you don’t need to sleep. Sleep is a way to handle
the fact that we’re ignorant as a spiritual and physical
being. But when you’re not, you don’t need
need sleep to repair health every night as it is, because
we’re ignorant of health. You don’t need to
sleep, ultimately. But you have to know how to get to the
other side of sleep. We are all drug-dependent, sop to
speak, and we don’t even know what that means when
I say it.
B: Very interesting.
Not sleeping is not just an ability to acquire by learning
it. You have to be able to go through the energy fields
that are boomeranged on you. Part of it is dietary, too.
You have to clean up all the toxins before you can work
on the deeper installed spiritual mechanism of sleep.
There’s a bunch of questions there! But let’s
stay on the topic.
So it’s a little bit like following a plot. So here
you are, you’re doing this technique and you’re
breaking through certain levels that you think are holding
back at least Ron Hubbard and his organization on some
Well, holding back all of mankind. What
Ron Hubbard discovered was why mankind is trapped and why
mankind in the condition it is. He wanted to free us. He
put the organization there because he wanted it to free
everyone on the planet.
instead, it was heavily attacked and he was attacked, and
it was finally taken down through children. And
I believe those children themselves were part of a psychic
program, because those children were given jobs in the
organization to run the adults.
were called “The Messenger Org”. They never
went to real school. They were like five, six, seven years
old. They were his servants and the only people who could
get close to him.
Were they that young?
I didn’t know that.
Oh yeah, you bet they were, it’s all they knew.
Did they go on the boat? How many children, and did they
go on the boat with him?
Yeah, they were the only ones who had access to Ron. The
adults couldn’t even get to him, only the children
could. And it’s the children who took over the organization.
The person that runs that organization today was one of
those children that started out very young.
Okay. And how many children? Do you know?
I don’t know how many there were. Hundreds. In the
end they fought it out. I mean at the end there were three
or four of them that were fighting it out for control of
the Church and they were like 12 years old, or not much
older. One of them won, and he got control of that Church.
Let me clarify this just a little bit by bouncing this
off you - because it kind of sounds a bit weird. What you’re
saying is that these children served as messengers.
They called them that.
Right, but let me tell you what I understand, because I
was never in the Church, and I was never a part of that
environment at all, so I’ve got no personal experience.
I’d understood was that they served as messengers,
both verbal messages and written messages, but the reason
why they had power was because they had the power to change
the message, or not deliver the message, or to falsify
That’s right. And there must have been instruction
to them that programmed them to know how to do alter directions
until they themselves became instilled with the personal
drive for power and dominance. They were intentionally
programmed to have enormous egos.
And therefore that put them in entire control of the communications,
like a spy program in a computer.
They were. Exactly.
And they could do absolutely anything they wanted to.
That’s right, and they did. They totally did. They
totally did. Many communications never got to Ron. Many
were altered. He ended up afraid or withdrawn, a Howard
Hughes-type figure. No one else talked to him but the children.
So who recruited the children initially?
Well, I believe that the government infiltrated sleeper
and conscious adult agents into the Church who trained
the children; that there programs with secret intentions
that went on with the children, but that it wasn’t
known to the parents, and was hidden in plain sight.
Agents who were members of the organization, you’re
Exactly. Exactly. But the children were programmed to become
inhuman and not like children; they became an entity unto
They were trained, brought up in the organization, so to
speak, and trained in these methods.
Well, not trained very well in actual Scientology, not
the real techniques, but the powerful military side of
things. Entire sections became like the Gestapo.
Not educated in real Scientology very well at all. They
were taking down the real Scientology.
They were infiltrated in a sense that somehow, but did
you feel that...? Like let’s say we have a kid, would
you feel the child and the parent would be infiltrated
by the CIA?
They were separated from their parents.
They were separated?
Because there was, it was called The Messenger Organization.
It was within the Church. and the parents would be working
in some section of the organization and the children would
be going through their own training, which was supposed
to be like regular school - but wasn’t so much like
regular school. It was highly disciplinarian.
person who took over the Church when Hubbard died wasn’t
even a high school graduate. He did NOT have a good education.
But he was trained in force and he was trained to dominate.
He was trained in control. He was trained in using power,
and he runs that organization that way.
What you’re saying is that the conditioning, so to
speak, came much more from the organization than from the
parents, and it’s almost like...
I think there was an organization within the organization,
because the IRS ended up running... I mean, the place was
loaded with IRS agents and lawyers that ran it, which took
over the Church.
And what year was this when that happened?
It happened fully in the ’80s. The final coup.
I remember that another whistleblower, Bill Robertson,
who we may or may not end up talking about, named Alan
Hibbert as also one of the infiltrators - and also, I believe,
the Broekers. All of this is in the public record and it’s
extensively debated on the internet. But the point is that
there was good reason to believe that there were agents
Oh, there has to have been.
...in this pyramidal structure that was complicit in this
takeover and many of them were sleepers, so to speak, that
had been there for a very long time. And all this was going
on alongside you because you were also fairly senior. I
think this was the question Kerry was asking. You were
fairly senior in this pyramidal structure. Is that accurate?
No, I was close to people that were senior in the structure.
Okay. All right.
See, it’s my belief that the FBI, the CIA and the
IRS, the AMA and the American Psychiatric Association,
all together joined in taking down Scientology because
it was exposing each one of them because Hubbard was spying
on them and releasing their own incriminating documents
- and openly curing disease in the 50s.
published a periodical of listed crimes with the time,
location and events, with names. He made enemies, alright.
But the biggest threat was that Hubbard was a threat to
the Illuminati, to the Anunnaki, because he had much truth
about our past, about who we actually are. The Anunnaki
don’t want us to keep remembering our history! And
he researched and published successful techniques to free
us of our amnesia. He just didn’t know the Controllers
are STILL here, and never left!
How did these people begin the take-down? In other words,
how did it manifest?
It manifested through children. Those children in The Messenger
Org were not the same as the people in the regular organization.
They were not the same. They were separate.
But I’m saying you’ve got auditors, you’ve
got the Scientology organization operating, so how did,
literally, the takedown occur? Do you even know? I mean,
I’m just asking.
in other words, was there... let’s say... I’m
just going to guess: was there some human being besides
a child who went into a position of power, who became sort
of an insidious leader?
It has to have happened on an invisible adult level first.
But the children manifested the takeover. There was corruption
that happened where people were compromised, as was Ron.
Ron didn’t know the real enemy.
true to the age old technique, his own justice system ended
up turned in on the members themselves. L. Ron Hubbard
was compromised, and I don’t know which L. Ron Hubbard,
but L. Ron Hubbard was compromised and made to be paranoid
and it became an organization of dominating enforcement.
His carefully thought out justice system, which he simply
called Ethics, became a series of kangaroo courts.
lost the real evolution of a workable human justice or
ethics system and blamed the now travesty on the original
for the crimes now committed using THAT as the means.
real ethics system was a work of genius, but was subverted
and used to commit horrible crimes against members. We
blamed the system, and didn’t know it had been intentionally
corrupted and turned suppressive to the members themselves
in order to take them all down.
became blinded with paranoia and it started bit by bit,
way back. From fearless to frightened. If he only knew
there was good reason to be frightened, but, as he said,
if you know the real reason for something you can DO something
about it. You can deal with it. The truth sets us free.
He ended up taking money? Or they started changing the
Money was taken off the front lines, but Hubbard allowed
or participated early on in using forcefulness to
control people and to try to discipline them. Desperate.
mind control technique. Entice a pure being to commit one
act of compromise, and he is so basically good that that
act becomes an Achilles Heel until he can see WHO manipulated
him and why and what his own part in it was.
Let me make a suggestion here, which is also in the form
of a question. Because, as I was saying, I wasn’t
around at this time. What I understand is that, for example,
a message would come through apparently from Hubbard with
apparently his signature on it saying: Don’t
do it that way, do it THIS way from now on. This is an
nobody ever really knew whether this came from Hubbard.
It could have been falsified because the messengers were
fully in control of the communication.
even to this day there are debates about whether Hubbard’s
signature has been falsified on certain – they’re
called Technical Bulletins – because everything that
has got to do with defining the exact details of how a
beneficial process should be applied was defined by Hubbard,
and as his research was refined over the years he would
periodically make alterations and amendments and upgrades,
like I’ve discovered a better way to do this;
do it this way. Or there’s a better way to do this,
do it that way.
all you’ve got to do is to have somebody faking that
and then say: I’ve got a better way to do it;
do it this way,
and actually was it is was sabotaging the process and producing
a completely different result.
been extensive research done – actually it’s
sort of like historical research – done in the context
of the Church of Scientology now, just looking up and backing
up how everything’s been changed and changed and
That’s entirely correct. The subject is now a shadow
of what it once was. Periodically, I walk in one of their
organizations. I’m not in bad standing as my actual
self. I can walk in and out and say hello to people who
know me and, you know, nobody knows anything.
maintain good standing and I go in and look at what they’re
doing, and it’s absolutely a different subject, almost
not recognizable, and the things that had the most power
are so watered down that they’re ineffective.
is made into a cult icon. It’s now a cult mythology.
They tell the people he died because he “wanted” to
go on to do his next level and his body was holding him
back. What a crock! They make movies these days that make
him look like an ascended God. He would have been disgusted.
friend: ... Destruction of it from places very, very powerful
and very high up on the levels. Senior technical persons
changing the workable procedures. And that went on because
The Messenger Org had a tremendous control and used it,
and the children went crazy.
They went crazy?
friend: They went crazy with power because Ron would say
go out and tell somebody to do something and the children
would go out and say: Here I am, L. Ron Hubbard. The
child basically would say that and the people would say: Okay,
fine, I’ll do whatever you say. Just
imagine a nine-year-old or a seven-year-old with that kind
of power. Pretty awesome.
So they believed them.
friend: Absolutely. Well, that was the policy. They were
Ron’s Messengers who were supposed to give his exact
communications as he gave it to them.
It’s very hard to imagine. I think it’s very
hard for the new generation of Scientologists to really
understand that. This is one of the reasons why what we’re
recording here is as useful as a historical document.
My friend here was in it from 1950 when the book first
came out. He’s one of the so-called old-timers. They
call them that. Most of them are dead.
friend: Very few of us left.
Very few are left. Very few have what it takes physically
to live old like you have.
We were talking about how things were altered, and how
they got sand in the works, and things were gradually changed.
And the power was more and more in the hands of the children
and less and less in the hands of the people who really
were competent. And there’s an example – I
guess you captured it about how Bill Robertson... is it
worthwhile explaining who Bill Robertson was?
friend: There was this guy named Bill Robertson, and he
had gone up in the hierarchy and he was a captain in the
Sea Organization on the ships, and he had various stories.
One of the stories was that one of the ships was in France
and he’d tell us that the ship shouldn’t go
back to England because if they did the government would
confiscate it. So the kids that were running the center
of communication at that point said: Forget it. We
aren’t paying any attention to that.
So the ship came back and the government actually confiscated
it. That kind of thing.
one time when Robertson was in England, and Ron and he
were about three buildings apart – Ron was in a building,
Robertson was staying in another apartment about three
apartments away – and Ron sent some communication
to Robertson, the children picked it up and the kids brutally
said to Robertson that Ron doesn’t like what
you’re doing and you’re in a lower condition.
What do you mean a lower condition?
friend: You’re in disfavor, so therefore you’re
going to have to make some amends to make up for what you’ve
done - whatever
it was at that particular time.
the report was an invention of the kids, a ten-year-old
or eight-year-old, whatever he was. And so Robertson fell
out of favor, didn’t know that Ron didn’t say
that himself, and there was a lot of fallout from that
episode. Those kinds of things because of the Messenger
Org went on more and more as the Messenger Org children
got more and more power.
Bill Robertson wasn’t the only one it happened to.
Many, many powerful people that were high up that had tremendous
ability to technically create and assist others to become
aware of their own psychic abilities and...
Church of Scientology was fighting the IRS, they were fighting
psychiatry, they were certainly fighting electric shock
techniques of any sort, and they were fighting drugs, medical
drugs, and all drug use. They put out a magazine detailing
the crimes of these agencies and organizations. That really
made enemies. He had no fear in telling the truth and exposing
techniques didn’t utilize any hypnosis or drugs in
order to assist somebody to have an extensive recall of
millions of years of their own history and to realize that
this is really the nature of existence, that we’re
all eternal spirits.
knowledge was common for us in those days and it was NOT
done through these techniques that have since become popular:
getting regressed and somebody else tells you what your
history was, and having drugs so you can find out, having
hypnosis so you can find out.
techniques that he came up with were pretty straightforward.
You actually could remember, yourself, no different than
you know what you ate for breakfast. You could remember
what you were doing a thousand years ago and it really
didn’t feel that different once you were developed
to a certain point. There was nobody else who ever told
you anything about yourself with these techniques; it was
purely your own memory. The techniques were not mind control.
They reversed mind
So to get to this place where we have the organization
being infiltrated in various ways and the children of members
being targeted, you know, and being messed with in the
So they interfered with the lines of communication such
that rifts occurred in the organization.
Were there also individuals who maybe started to manifest
things? Like you said, the organization was against drugs,
but also people that were, probably – I’m guessing,
you can correct me – embezzling money, encouraging
drug use, doing power games, possibly using various negative
As far as I could tell, anything like that came from the
top only. It wasn’t people in the organization. At
the top, Hubbard had to hide. He ordered money taken off
the top. He had to hide and he had to escape constantly
from various governments. That’s why he was out in
the ocean. And he...
But at the top of the organization? You’re saying
those things would have done at the top?
Not drugs that I know of, but money. Unbelievable sums
of money were siphoned off the organization and carried,
hand carried, so that Hubbard could maintain an ability
to not be found. In paper bags sometimes!
million bucks in a paper bag!
Okay, so you’re saying some of the money. The big
thing about at least that I remember about Scientology
was that it cost a huge amount.
Huge! And they manipulated the public to get it. They promised
they would get so many abilities, they would make back
the money they borrowed and gave to the Church. Mortgaging
houses, credit cards etc.
And then people were funneling money in there and you’re
saying some of it went to Hubbard. I’m assuming not all of
it went to Hubbard.
Well, much of it did, and to buying land outright. Now,
in the present day the money goes to the person who took
over; one of the children. They probably get it off the
top the way Hubbard once did, only they’re also in
cahoots with the IRS and the government, they are not hiding
like Ron was, cause they made peace with the criminals.
The Church had so much dirt on the IRS that David Miscavige
used it to demand that they back off the Church. It was
pure blackmail. Miscavige’s blackmail dropped the “charges”.
At the top of the triangle, did you know the names of people
who became instrumental in...? I didn’t read your
letter yet, so I don’t know if it named names.
Not at all. Not at all.
So you didn’t name names. But were you aware of the
names of people who were instrumental in infiltrating and
in bringing in other infiltrators?
Let me try to remember. Give me a minute. Can you remember
who was...? (Addressing his friend)
And you don’t have to publicize them.
It’s okay. I’m just asking my friend if he
recalls names. This is like so old for me. Almost 30 years
ago. I don’t recall names of adults who were really
messing stuff up. I recall some children’s names.
Do you recall? It seemed that there were really compromised
friend: They formed a Watchdog Committee.
Oh yeah, the Watchdog Committee. They were bad. They were
friend: It was composed of an IRS member. I don’t
know his name.
That was it. That’s how they did it.
friend: One IRS member, three lawyers and there was one
senior official from the Church. So basically it was the
Watchdog Committee... Ron set this up with jurisdiction
over the entire organization, policy-wise, and they could
come in and correct whatever needed to be corrected.
Ron did? Well, if that was true and he allowed the IRS
in, one of the worst enemies, then he was fully compromised
or that is an altered false report that he set that up
that way. And they, the Watchdog Committee could kick ass
too, kick people out; they could do all kinds of stuff
to their personal business and lives and reputations – whatever
they wanted if they wanted to destroy somebody and decided
they were an enemy of the organization.
friend: Basically, the orientation of the Watchdog Committee
became legal, so they formed up dummy corporations to protect
the money, like four or five corporations deep. A tremendous
amount of money was involved and basically they came from
a legal structure, organization, and various appropriations
of publishing corporation and so forth became separate
The publishing corporations watered down the material.
friend: The juniors, the children, the guy who runs the
Church now was one of the messengers and there was about
five of them and the battle that ensued was that he finally
came out on top.
Yes. The children fought for control and this guy got it.
David Miscavige. This
is all in the public domain.
Pat and Annie Broeker... They
fought each other to get control. We were all watching
and wondering who was going to get control. Big drama in
high places. Lots of bodies.
Okay. So but when this was happening, because what we’re
trying to do is build the scenario up to your writing the
letter, so I’m trying to paint that and so I was
wondering: At what point did you become aware, if you can
remember the year?
At the time, ’80, I think, ’79, ’80.
There were some clear indicators that the organization
was going down the wrong road.
Yeah. At the time I wrote it, a few of the children were
fighting it out and that was when I wrote the letter and
I named those children in the letter.
But there were other people of course who were very aware
and becoming seriously concerned. There was a gradual,
as I understand it - this is a question - there was a gradual
rising of awareness and concern, but nobody actually did
The leaders in the field really tried to do something.
There was actually a meeting on Flag, which was the main
headquarters and all of the heads of individual organizations – called
franchises – all met together to complain about this
Watchdog Committee and the way they were being controlled
and the tech [processing techniques] was being compromised.
What do you mean, it was on ‘Flag’? Is there
a place where it was held?
It was a place. It was the headquarters, and I believe
that happened in Florida, didn’t it? Or was it on
friend: Clearwater, Florida.
They had a land headquarters. It wasn’t on the ship
headquarters where this happened. So they met, all these
franchise holders and heads that were very powerful people
that knew the techniques and helped others to have their
own organizations where people could come in and go up
this ladder of getting their memory and their recall and
their freedom, basically – they were the ones out
in the field that were delivering this to the public.
they all met to complain and meet, wondering what was happening
to this organization.
Did you go to that meeting?
I wasn’t at the meeting. The letter I wrote reported about that
meeting because I heard what happened in the meeting and
what happened to these stellar leaders had all been put
down and stopped and put into situations where they were
said to be criminals within the organization, kicked out
in some cases or told that they had to do many things to
make up for the terrible things they had done.
these were the people who had built the
organization. These were the leaders within the organization
who had independently formed their own organizations which
were feeders for the higher levels in the larger Church-run
organizations. They were ravaged in this meeting that happened
Were they innocent? Is that what you’re trying to
Yeah. They were innocent. They were leaders who had done
the most for the organization.
They were highly able, highly respected, real heroes...
Okay, and so, once again...
The Watchdog Committee, I believe, that was somewhat mysterious.
I think I talked about that in the letter. It was somewhat
mysterious, who was who in it, but they had this power
that was supposedly given by Ron but if it was signed by
Ron I believe it was done through the children. It wasn’t
just that Ron Hubbard knew everything that was going on.
he did, his own mind was much compromised into some kind
of state of paranoia. He himself knew he was being attacked
for many years. Certainly since the ’70s he knew
he had to hide, and he had to run. He knew he had to be
on the seas.
character of strength, of ability to take care of himself
and teach others to be responsible and stand up to evil
... He was like that and he taught that and the people
he spawned were like that, so he was out there on the high
seas doing all of this stuff and they had psychic abilities
to tell when there was going to be attacks, and what harbor
to go in, what harbor not to go in, all these sorts of
things. So ... something happened to him.
Somehow he got compromised.
He was compromised, absolutely.
So then what you’re saying is they had this meeting
and what was the result of the meeting?
The result of the meeting was all these people that had
power were stopped from functioning, stopped from running
Were they fired? Were they asked to leave the organization?
They were fined huge amounts of money and told they’d
committed crimes that they hadn’t committed. It was
posted publicly. The people who were the most looked up
to. People felt betrayed and confused. The leaders were
And just because some church fines you money, you don’t
have to pay it, do you?
Some paid, some didn’t. But things just stopped working.
The infrastructure of the Church was dysfunctional. Its
own members were turning against the hierarchy. Confidential
materials were left in the open.
Okay. So at that point, did you have people leaving the
No. Nobody was leaving. There was loyalty - and disbelief
it was all happening. Like the USA now! These people were
trying to do something about mankind. So here’s the
organization delivering these techniques and Ron Hubbard
at the top and nobody knew what happened to Ron. Many who
people knew him were shut out and couldn’t talk to
So you’re saying they stayed attached.
They were attached.
A sense of loyalty for what he had given them, or something
There was massive confusion, upset and great betrayal,
including of persons who’d worked with Ron directly.
I wrote the letter within a month or two after this Mission
Holders meeting on Flag.
was outrage about the meeting at Flag, so people started
having secret meetings about the big meeting; hushed conversations
in halls talking to each other around the world. They’d
gather in peoples’ homes and talk about what had
happened, and these outrageous things that were happening
to water down and misuse techniques; and not using the
organizations system to deal with disagreements or discover
who did what, not using it correctly, misusing it in kangaroo
courts of judgment in which people were “declared
evil” in the Scientology terminology, an ostracism.
if you fought it, they would plant drugs on you or calls
your friends, family, employers and harass you. This misuse
of justice had been creeping in for some years, but at
the Mission Holder meeting at Flag, the system completely
isolated the highest producers and most respected leaders
in the organization and labeled them as having had criminal
behavior. They had to pay penance either in hard work or
labor for doing all these “evil” things.
Church levied “taxes” on anyone who used Hubbard’s
techniques. The They required 10% of your gross income
if you even used the subject in business. It was the worst
of control and suppression possible to the basic subject.
The opposite of what should be done if one wanted the subject
to be well known and well thought of.
people were meeting around the world. They were meeting,
and they were talking, and they were trying to understand: Where’s
Ron? What happened to Ron? How can all this be happening? Trying
to figure it out.
meetings were extremely intense. People would cry their
hearts out and scream in rage. Many of the people I heard
weeping had been close personal friends of Ron. There was
real love and great dedication and a sense of loyalty that
was betrayed. How could Ron let this Happen? Where
IS he? What HAPPENED to him?
was heartbreaking. It was these emotions that drove me
to write the letter. One of the great stated discoveries
in Scientology was the “Third Party Law”. It
stated that for two sides to continue to have a conflict,
there HAS to be a HIDDEN THIRD PARTY who is invisible or
not obvious, who is actually causing it all. That was the
core subject of my letter.
Okay, so now let’s get back to you. So people were
doing this. You weren’t at that initial meeting in
Florida. At the same time you had, I assume, friends who
were there. And so, then what happened? Did you participate
in meetings like you’re describing?
Yeah. I started going to them and listening to what was
going on, to these people that were heroes that had helped
so many people; I listened to them talking about what had
Okay, so what propelled you, then, to write the letter?
People would cry their hearts out and scream in rage and
anguish. I witnessed some people uncontrollably weeping
who were close personal friends of Ron.
believed that the planet was on the brink of destruction
and that we were going to save it. We believed we had the
means to do so. We were a movement. We believed our history
and our future was in the stars, just as Bob Dean says.
And I was giving counseling someone who worked directly
for Ron Hubbard’s children, so I was finding out
about all sort of untoward things where they couldn’t
see Ron Hubbard, they couldn’t reach him, their mother
was controlled and couldn’t reach him, and that this
Messenger Organization and the Watchdog Committee were
all standing in between and they ruled what happened to
Ron Hubbard and no communications could go back and forth.
and his wife had decided to separate to make it harder
on the authorities to locate him, but that may have been
a manipulation by the Messenger Org too. Maybe the Messenger
Org itself created false stories and utilized the resulting
fear in LRH and his family to make it impossible in the
future to ever meet again.
something was wrong; the family couldn’t tell Ron
about anything anymore. So I kept hearing about that. The
kids - his kids - were very upset and hurt.
Okay, and so what made you sit down and write the letter?
The desire to save the subject and have the subject help
mankind the way it had started out to.
Okay, but was there any, you know, if I was writing a movie,
was there any inciting incident that actually said to you
that you have special knowledge, special access, and that
you could write a letter that might have an effect?
The final thing that caused me to write it was that severe
and dangerous unrest broke out in the public sector. The
mega size LA organization was stormed by a large crowd
of upset Scientologists. They entered the huge downstairs
dining room. There were more outside the building with
megaphones, and they were surging in large numbers.
was close to a full riot, really out of hand. The Church
authorities couldn’t control it. It was like a violent
revolution starting. Next, there was going to be broken
windows and physical fighting and hospitalizations. It
really looked to me as if it could start getting violent.
I was there and witnessed it all.
were citing injustices on the megaphone and screaming in
protest and weeping on the megaphones about injustices
and it was becoming mob mentality. The Church authorities
had ultimate control because they could threaten excommunication.
But the authority was wearing thin. If it weren’t
for this real life situation, my letter would have had
Wow. I never heard about that.
Critical mass was reached. It felt as if there was going
to be real violence. The authorities in the Church were
clearly afraid, trying to calm the crowd down. The next
day, at another organization where I was working, I heard
about the riot from Ron’s children’s viewpoint
couple of them - Arthur and Yvette - worked that other
organization in LA. They were scared too. People were demanding
that they get in touch with Ron and they could not. Diana,
another older kid, was not in that office, but I’m
sure she felt the pressure terribly. These kids are alive
now, and they were all bought off.
Were they very young at that point?
Teenagers at the most, and one of his children was killed
and left in the desert to die.
You mean Quentin.
Did he die?
Yeah. He was killed and left in the desert outside of Vegas.
And did that happen before you wrote the letter?
There’s a weird offline here: Kit Green provided
me with his autopsy report.
I remember that.
Oh yeah? What was it?
Suspicious. I can show you the details.
I’d like to see it.
I’ve got it. I’ll e-mail it to you.
I felt terrible about Quentin. He was one of the dearest
people there ever could be. He used to come to LA and let
us watch him do sessions. He was a master at the techniques.
Ron said he was the best in the world.
friend: Can I add something here? Basically the main organization
was taken over by these new people, children that were
coming up. The missions or the outlying territories where
people were actually learning the technology were doing
a tremendous job.
people who were running the main organization didn’t
understand why all this activity was going on in the outside
and they thought that the missions were ripping them off,
taking all the money that should have been turned into
the central organization and all that money was being fed
out to all the mission people for their activities.
so you have this area where there’s a fight going
on, a battle is going on between the central and the outlying
organizations... I mean, one of the senior officials used
to carry a .45 and he had it on his desk and that was who
you’d go talk to, and here’s the .45 looking
right at you.
You’re talking about Russ?
Well he had one too.
friend: Anyway, one of the basic tenets of this whole technology
was that any time you have a battle when you have fight
of any kind between two people, look for a third party.
friend: And the Third Party Law which
is all written up in all the technology itself became very,
very apparent, I believe, to Dane.
Yeah. It was very apparent that the battle was not between
the central organization and these outlying ones. There
was somebody causing that battle to happen, that caused
the organization to fight itself.
that’s how it was taken down, essentially. It fought
itself. They did each other in. People did each other in.
It’s like people that are married did each other
in. People that loved each other, worked together, came
up the ranks together, agreed on the same principles, were
there altruistically, not there because they wanted to
make a buck – they were there to save mankind, and
they believed Ron Hubbard that the planet was gonna be
taken down, and they could see it for themselves when they
remembered their own history that it was a repeat performance
on Earth coming right on down the pike again. They wanted
to assist people to WAKE UP, recall who they were and are,
and to save the planet.
friend: Let me finish my thought, which was the Third Party
Law. It’s that most of the people that were in this
movement were very conscious of the Third Party Law.
when the Dane Tops letter came out about what had happened
at the Mission Holder Meeting in Florida, there was an
edict that was put out by the central organization that
if they didn’t like what you were doing, what they
said was that you are excommunicated by the Church, period.
That’s it, nothing you can do. And there were hundreds
and hundreds of these edicts that were put out all at once
in a matter of three, four weeks, or a month and a half.
friend: The central organization, which the children and
the various alphabet agency people were in charge of. Dane’s
letter went out... and there’s another factor involved
happened was that the central organization formed up what
was called the Finance Police and
they would come into the outlying franchise operations,
and I know specifically because a good friend of mine ran
one of the organizations and they told him: You owe
which is exactly what they had in their account. They took
all the money out of the account. They just took it. They
broke the Mission.
D: “Mission” is
another name for a Scientology franchise.
friend: We’re the Finance Police and therefore
we’re totally in charge of all the money which is
supposed to come back.
this happened worldwide. Now you can imagine what this
central organization is saying: All your money is mine. Dane’s
letter comes out. Everybody gets the letter, and says, Look
at this: Who IS the third party?
That’s what I wrote in my letter.
friend: And everybody is saying the Third Party is who?
And this question that went out in Dane’s letter
that ended up being sent to everybody. This is what started
the whole full schism and exodus.
friend: A spiral. Right.
It was not just that part of us was wrong and others were
right. The real destroyer of the Church was something hidden
outside of all us, planting false information and making
us fight ourselves and most of all, the founder, Ron Hubbard.
But before we get to exactly the letter, just a little
bit more background in terms of here you are. This is occurring
around you, you’re going to these meetings that you
described, and there’s not just you, but there’s
two other people that you’re kind of like in a small
group with. Is that correct?
They weren’t part of these meetings. They wanted
nothing to do with the whole thing. One of the people in
the small group was already out of the organization and
had already seen the writing on the wall - and the other
one was afraid to get involved, or be seen as going against
the Church. It was only myself who went to the meetings
and public outcries and downright insurrection.
Okay, so you were alone there. Were those two people working
with you? Because you said you were working with two other
people. Were they involved in writing the letter?
No. They had nothing to do with it. It was totally individual,
just myself. The work I was doing with them involved these
enhanced psychic ability techniques that were originally
derived from the three months of an ET contact.
of the three of us had devised some techniques too, and
we utilized it all. We were working with each other to
bring the techniques to a higher level... Just the technology
itself that Hubbard did, we enhanced it to make it go farther
so that we would have more abilities and more stability
once achieving them. And that was the only work I was doing
with the two other people.
Okay, here in the setting at this point, I don’t
know what year are we at?
All of this happened between ’80 and ’82.
So at this point, you decide to write a letter. Is it your
ET contact that says you’ve got information or a
download that says write this letter or helped you write
it? Or was it some other stimulus that was direct that
made you write the letter?
The public riot in LA was the last straw. It was truly
frightening. I had strength from my experience of enhanced
abilities. In retrospect and having learned all the information
on Camelot, I can now see that I must have had an ET contact
to cause the ability to go without food, water and sleep
for three months and download the material about the creation
of the human race - and much more.
go beyond the “veil”, one might say. But the
things that happened to give me the courage to create Dane
Tops and writing the letter, was not an ET contact as such.
Dane Tops was born out of a passionate desire to save the
Church of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard from destruction.
Just a sober analysis from the point of view of a person,
yourself, who had some inside access and knowledge and
then with what was going on around you who were, basically,
it was falling apart – as it was – as you described
Falling apart, but nobody was leaving.
Okay. Even though they were being sent letters to be excommunicated,
they wouldn’t leave.
They wouldn’t leave.
Okay. So at that point, with that setting, you write your
letter. Okay, now you had to be hidden at that moment.
I was always hidden as Dane Tops.
In other words, you have a persona that they know you as.
When you walk in, they would say hello?
Yeah. They would know me just as I am now, but I became
someone else and I wore different clothes when I was Dane
Tops. I wasn’t recognizable at all. I used a different
license plate on my car. I had a complete disguise.
To do what?
To be Dane Tops. Because what I did was I got a mailbox
that was... actually I had to find a mailbox where I couldn’t
be followed or known, that wouldn’t be a normal suspected
mailbox, so I took out a mailbox in the name of Dane Tops
and the mailbox was actually in a business of mailboxes
that were utilized for pornography mail between people.
There was some security around it to protect it from the
So you thought of this ahead of time.
This is very important part of the story.
[to Bill] I know it’s important, so just let me set
the scene so I can understand the story a little bit more.
Dane] I want to understand because I know you might know
a little bit more, but I know nothing, so I’m just
talking to you as someone who knows nothing about what
you did and how you did it.
wanted to write this letter. Did you decide to write the
letter and then figure out how to put it out there? Or
did you first figure out how to disguise yourself, knowing
what this organization would do to you if you wrote such
a letter? Do you see what I’m asking?
I wrote the letter out of my own passion, and I hadn’t
figured out all of this, because I had no idea of the impact
the letter would have when I wrote it.
wrote the letter and sent it to a Los Angeles mailing list
of certain key people, maybe 20 or 30 people originally,
the only time I ever mailed it. But I wanted a return address
to see if anyone responded, and that needed to be totally
hidden so they wouldn’t find out who I was.
They didn’t have e-mail then, so how did you send
By regular mail, snail mail.
And was it traceable?
Yeah, because I had the return address which was this phony
Post Office box that was a real one under the name of Dane
Tops, and Dane Tops is who signed the letter.
I went to get mail from that Post Office box, I wore a
disguise and I had a false license plate. Because I knew
the organization would be surveiling it.
So you had a disguise, Okay. You sent out the letter before
you decided to protect yourself?
I think before I sent it out, I got the PO Box so I was
protected when I sent it. But when I wrote it, I didn’t
know what I was going to do. I just wrote it out of my
own passion and desire.
then when I decided to send it out and got some significant
snail-mail addresses of major people in the organization
in LA, I decided I can’t be known or allow myself
to be discovered.
signed Dane Tops out of nowhere and I did this thing with
a pornographic snail-mail address. I had to figure out
how to disguise myself. I got an idea that was wild for
me, to go somewhere I had never been.
got my disguise because I went to a gay porno man’s
movie and I looked at the way they were dressed in trenchcoats
when they went because they would go in these movies and
masturbate in the movies and make connections in the movies.
I went to several of these movies in a trench coat outfit
and copied their manners and then I found out where one
of these porno addresses was by asking from one of the
guys in the movie who thought I was a gay too. I had to
really take care of myself there.
Did you get advice from somebody, or did you think of this
all on your own?
It was all on my own. I wrote the letter. Then I had the
thought: How am I gonna do this? I
thought: Well, I’ll try this; I’ll just
dress up like one of those guys who go to these movies
in Hollywood. Those movies were around and you would see
the men outside and they were slinky and in disguise. I
started going to the movies. I
found out from one of them where I could get a secret address
because they had secret addresses. Gay life was different
Now, at that time, nobody else, not one person at that
time, knew that you were doing this.
This was absolutely solo, a total personal secret. Nobody
Did you have romantic partner at that time? And she didn’t
No, she didn’t know. She was very much in the organization,
but she wouldn’t have agreed with anything that I
was doing, so I had to keep quiet with her. And I kept
bringing this weird outfit home in a suitcase, so it was very weird.
So you sent the letter out without her knowing about it?
friend: I was there too. You told me about it and I got
very alarmed since I was really...
You were high up, higher up than I was.
friend: I got very alarmed and said: Well, this is
all really incredible. [Dane
laughs] What are you going to do to protect yourself? And
then he came up with whatever he did to create the image,
because I thought if this gets out, then we’re all
dead, anyone who knows you.
Dead meat, yeah.
But you knew ahead of time that if this letter... at that
time you knew, because now I would say everyone would know.
At that time I knew, yes, Kerry.
You knew they’d kill you over the letter.
I didn’t know if they’d kill me. Work me over,
maybe, but I knew that we would be excommunicated and any
kind of reputation my wife and I had would be ruined, all
our mail would be gone through from there on out, we’d
be harassed where we lived and worked and our neighbors
would be harassed.
wouldn’t necessarily kill me, but they did a lot
of bad things, like they’d plant drugs on you and
get you thrown in jail. They’d do things like that
to ruin your life if you were messing with them. Many lives
And you said, I think before we started recording this,
that they threw a lot of resources at finding out who this
Well yeah, because when I sent it out just to Los Angeles
people. I didn’t know what was going to happen. I
was amazed! When it mushroomed and exploded, they went
friend: I was looking at a clip on Miscavige and it turns
out that he’s 47 or 49 now. I thought that was amazing.
Time really flies.
That means he was a late teen when he took over the Church.
But he had started in the Church when he was a little,
friend: He started when he was four or five.
Four or five, that’s unbelievable.
friend: There was some attention to some education either
home schooling or...
Well, he could read and write.
friend: But there was some Church education.
Yeah. The hard-ass stuff.
friend: But mostly it was crazy.
It was all discipline. It was like military discipline
for little children.
friend: Yeah. Bad news for kids.
Unless you got to be in power, then you were privileged.
friend: Yeah, really. They had their hierarchy in there
Everything had a hierarchy. That’s what it was all
built on, right?
friend: Right, who’s the top dog.
friend: I’ve read some of the articles on Miscavige’s
escapades, and some of the people went into great detail
because The Times in
Clearwater... I think three guys left and went public,
published their stories in The Times in
Clearwater about Miscavige’s escapades.
What were they?
friend: He ended up using raw force to control people.
I mean, slap them in the face, punch them, jump up and
down, hit them in the side of the head, and smash them
in the ears.
Heavy, heavy, heavy. Yes, bad stories about that guy.
friend: And because it takes raw force... Miscavige is
the one that got the IRS
to classify Scientology as a Church,
as a religion, which is an interesting thing in itself.
He got the legal status as a religion.
So he let all those IRS agents in? Miscavige did it?
friend: Miscavige went through, got a tremendous amount
of legal background on all the IRS people.
Well, the Church had been doing the research on the IRS
and collecting files on it for years: so Miscavige wanted
to make peace with them?
friend: No, he wanted a deal up front and he laid it out
one way or the other. They had the goods on the government
and IRS. The edict from David Miscavige was: If you
will give us what we want, we will not prosecute you personally,
he did it up front. I mean he went there in his usual manner,
used a lot of force.
So this was what, age 18 or something?
friend: Yeah. This was the time when the Church flipped
over and became a legal entity with government protection
and they no longer attacked the government after that.
I see - legal, doesn’t have to pay taxes, a religion.
friend: And the whole transaction never went public.
Right. Nothing went public. Nobody knows about it.
friend: Well, they know it happened but nobody can find
a date. It was a corporate structure, and it’s all
private. So the whole area was turned into... the energy
was physical, raw energy that’s being used. Even
his niece turned against him.
friend: Yeah, went public on it.
And said what?
friend: That he was a bad person and he was...
Beating up people and stuff?
friend: Beating up people, using undue force, no real communication,
etcetera. But he really got crazy when he started beating
up the Executive Committee.
He actually was physically beating up the Executive Committee?
Good God. He’s really, wow, heavy duty. Does he beat
the shit out of them or does he just slap them around?
friend: Some of them he slapped around, some of them he
kicked. He hits them hard.
Like one hard hit, like he can deliver a great punch?
friend: Yeah, but sometimes he would do it in a very inopportune
Do it in front of people to humiliate them. Right?
friend: Yeah. Absolutely. There’s one boss and that’s
him. There’s One.
Didn’t you say he did that to Tom Cruise?
It was some big star who he slapped around. Oh I know,
it was when he was married to... who was that Australian
lady Tom Cruise was married to?
Nicole Kidman. Weren’t you the one that told me what
happened with that?
friend: No, not me.
Somebody told me what happened with Miscavige and Tom Cruise.
friend: Oh, he came on to her and said that she was a bitch.
Miscavige told that to Tom Cruise?
friend: No, told it to Nicole Kidman, that she was a bad
Miscavige told that to Nicole Kidman?
friend: And he told Cruise that she was a bad influence
And that’s why they got divorced?
friend: I don’t know if that’s the case.
But, I mean, if he says it, then Tom Cruise has to pay
attention to it then.
Nicole Kidman was also a Scientologist?
friend: Not any more, I bet.
But this guy, David Miscavige, this Messenger who got control
of the Church, bad-mouthed her to Tom Cruise really heavy
So, he was involved.
friend: Well, everybody took Miscavige seriously, because
he beat people up and he was good at it. [laughs]
He physically beat people up.
Yeah, that’s right, in humiliating ways, in front
I know, but if somebody does that, you’d expect them
to lose followers, normally.
friend: Well, he was in a position of being THE senior
in the Church, and he could kick somebody out at will,
as IF he were Ron. That’s the power the Messengers
had gotten. People did not want to be kicked out.
See, where the whole control goes in on the populace of
the Church is that the idea that they are holding the next
level that’s going to give you this kind of freedom
of retrieving all these super abilities... to save your
immortal soul! Ever hear of that?
Holding onto knowledge.
That’s right, and the fact is, the Church stops at
a certain level, and after Hubbard died – actually
before – they didn’t have more levels to offer
to keep advancing people, so that’s when the real
if they restored the full use of the techniques, people
wouldn’t put up with the police control. They become
individually powerful, and will not become a slave.
The levels stopped after he died.
The true delivery was compromised before he
died. The scam is that you are going to become completely
enlightened; your enlightenment process will continue and
finish to the point of full godhood provided you get the
next level and pay for it – and it’s always
the next level.
constantly digging around in old material and trying to
come up with something new, but it isn’t. And in
fact the real techniques that will get you the most stability
in higher powers aren’t being used at all and were
mostly abandoned, as they take too long to deliver and
people can do it with each other for no money.
I’ve got a little question that fits in with this,
and that is that I was very interested to know whether
the idea of writing a letter was something that sort of
slowly crept up on you - or whether it came to you in a
kind of blinding flash of inspiration.
It was pretty much as I described a few minutes ago. My
impetus started after one terribly wrenching meeting where
people were in great emotional pain about having no answers.
This was during the secret clandestine meetings after the
infamous Mission Holders Meeting. Then the LA riot. The
letter came out of need to do something about it all, just
a total desperation and upset about what was happening
to our ability to help people worldwide.
Had you ever written another letter that made you want
to write this one?
Not in the organization, no. I’d written to Ron Hubbard
before, and received answers from him, but they weren’t
to save the organization. They were just things within
it to assist it to deliver well.
And was that common that people would write him?
Yes. People wrote him all the time, but they didn’t
get direct answers a lot. For some reason, he wrote back
to me and I was always proud of that.
had high stats or production and he took notice of the
methods I was using and validated that, and even wrote
a administrative directive about the technique I was using
and it went out worldwide. I was very proud of that. [laughs]
But at this point, I still want to interject for the benefit
of anyone who is reading this transcript, and hasn’t
seen the letter that will accompany this transcript...
a “letter” makes it sound like a little letter
of a couple of pages that you write on a piece of notepaper
and put in an envelope.
is a ten thousand word major presentation, and as somebody
who writes myself and sometimes I think, well I’m
going to write a few paragraphs here,
and it ends up being huge. What was your experience when
you wrote it? Did you, just like you turned on the tap
and then it just flowed? Did it come out in one go or did
you have to work on it for a week?
One go. Because what many people seem to have experienced
in reading that letter is that it wasn’t only a presentation
of clarifying, de-confusing, information, but it was actually
inspiring in itself. It contained something between the
lines, between the words.
was what I felt when I read it, and this wasn’t even
there at the time. This was many years later, and I thought, my
know. This is before I met you.
letter had an energy and spirit of its own like a rolling
snowball, just rolling, rolling, rolling, that people seemed
to have been inspired, that they felt drawn to copy it
and send it to somebody else, and then they copied it,
and there are copies of copies of copies.
couldn’t stop this thing because the spirit with
which you imbued it seemed to be picked up by the people
who received the letters. Would you say that’s accurate?
Oh yeah. After that, my life became trying to deal with
all the mail. Just about the only places I didn’t
get mail from in the world was the Far East and the Iron
Curtain, you know, the communist countries. But I actually
did get some mail from Russia. Every western country I
got a lot of mail from.
So, you had a disguise, you had a post box, you mailed
the letter. In a sense, were you continuing your normal
life not disguised, and then you’d go in and pick
up your mail, in your disguise, I assume?
But no one ever found out, or traced you, or followed you.
No, but they tried.
Did they have suspicion?
No. They tried, they really tried. I was never questioned.
They wouldn’t have known it was me when they cased
the PO Box.
types frequented that mailbox center through the doors,
which you had to get through first with ID. I’d thoroughly
made sure with the owner that he would never reveal whose
mail I was picking up, if someone came in afterwards and
tried to bribe him to tell, which they DID - he said.
course, he thought I was hiding due to illegal pornography
issues and that would have affected his illegal business
to reveal my identity. I was dressed as a seedy, gay man.
So that meant the owner of the business was not bribable,
and that’s what I’d thought out beforehand,
and why I had chosen such a bizarre setting.
had hundreds of mailboxes. The Church wouldn’t have
any way of knowing when people went in the building who
was going to pick up Dane Tops’ mail. I knew that
it was a safe bet beforehand because I was going to put
a return address. I knew they were going to watch the place
and look for Dane Tops, even if it only reached the original
20 or 30 people I sent it out to.
didn’t how hard they tried to find me and how much
money they spent to do it until later when I started hearing
inside info about the search for Dane Tops.
How much later was that?
Well, I was still in the main organization and could go
in and out as I pleased, and discuss the terrible letter
with others, and see what they were going to do about this
still kept going to these clandestine illegal meetings
too, and [laughs] I was getting all this mail coming in
from around the world, and at these meetings, they started
acknowledging Dane Tops and applauding. I was flabbergasted
the first time I had to stand up and toast and applaud
myself along with the others.
of the people in the meetings had written to me in private.
There’d be a meeting of 50 of these people that felt
more power now because of the letter and they were all
talking about the letter for many months, you know, and
they’d start praising Dane Tops, and I would stand
right there toasting myself along with them - because it
would have been weird if I didn’t.
toast about all the copies of it that were going all around
the world and there would be stacks of printed letters
for people to take and send out to others. I was astonished.
I was just there as my real self, listening to all this.
So, how many pages was the letter?
It runs to about ten thousand words. If you print that
out, that’s what? I mean, it’s a big piece.
I don’t understand numbers like that. How many pages?
I would say about 20 or 30 pages. Is that about right?
It was quite a lot, you know.
It didn’t seem long to me.
I know that this is a detail, but was it typed?
I did it with a typewriter. And then I got rid of the typewriter,
because I didn’t want it to be traced.
And then you signed it at the bottom, and there was this
fascinating little subplot that people were trying to decipher
this extraordinary little signature.
friend: It’s still on the net. It’s still going
on. There are still arguments about it still going on:
Who did it? Who was it?
So, a trivial question: Where did that name come from?
What a strange name. It’s very memorable. But where
did that come from?
I don’t know. It just came out of me, and I signed
So you mailed it out, you sent it out, and at that point,
how many days before you started getting any reaction whatsoever
back to you?
I didn’t go to the PO Box for a week, but letters
had been coming in all week from the day after it was sent.
Someone hand carried an answer to the mailbox to get it
there immediately, and then I just received more and more
and more mail from all over LA and the US, and then the
And when people wrote to you, what were they saying?
God somebody’s written this. You’re right,
Now, you didn’t write back to those people, did you?
I wrote back to a lot of people.
As Dane Tops?
Mm hm. I wrote back to hundreds of people. There were thousands of
And with the return address at the same PO Box?
Yes, I kept up the disguise and the license plate and the
whole persona. There were some people I had quite a bit
of correspondence with.
But you said you got thousands of replies.
Oh, many thousands. For at least a year or two. I don’t
know how many.
It’s very interesting for us in the age of e-mails
to actually... I mean, thousands of physical letters is
quite something. And also of course there’s a time
delay before these things get physically photocopied and
then sent out in the mail across the world.
I remember, for instance, reading the report, I think it
was from one of the European countries, that the Dane Tops
letter reached them the next year, like a steamship, you
know. Really very funny, this thing was kind of gradually
moving around the world. And in today’s terminology,
it went viral.
I never sent it to anybody but the original LA list. I
never sent it to anybody but that, so the rest of it was
from those original people sending it.
And did Hubbard ever read it?
By that time you couldn’t get to him, but I had hope
that it would. I was trying to get to him because my small
group had devised techniques that we believed we could
undo what was happening to Hubbard, what was the matter,
why his technology got stopped at a certain place.
believed we could repair what had happened to him, what
was stopping him. But we couldn’t get to him because
he was already completely quarantined. He was out in the
desert. So, the children would never give him that letter,
even if an adult gave it to them to deliver it.
But if you go out of body, you can communicate with him.
Didn’t people think that they could do that? Weren’t
they getting reports back, and so on?
By the ’80s, these skills were deteriorating. And
were never developed to full mutual telepathy as they needed
to be. It would have certainly helped us more now with
the ET problems.
But the heads that were – by that word meaning you
said there were heads,
you know, the heads that ran the organization, which were
then basically taken down on some level. Okay?
But those people are still individuals and they’re
still going to try, aren’t they, to communicate with
him? Go out of body?
I think a lot of tried, and we knew the main person – a
fellow named David Mayo who was the last known consultant
of Ron Hubbard at the time, the last one who was working
on technology with Ron.
developed the last major techniques together that Ron worked
on. David was brought in because Ron was sick as a dog
and had cancer on his face. The last piece of tech developed
was an effort to save Ron’s life, and David was as
much a part of developing it as Ron or even more.
was called New Era Dianetics for OTs, its
technical name. Or NOTS for short. We found out directly
from David Mayo about the condition Ron Hubbard was in
- which was so very poor at that time, with a growth on
was already a sick prisoner in his own situation, with
child vultures waiting for him to die so they could take
over. Top executives were made prisoners too, like a hard
labor camp, and they couldn’t get out. Again the
best of the best made into slaves.
of like the Chinese Cultural Revolution, where you murder
the greatest in your county. Take down the artists, the
inventors, and the most educated. People in the Church
were subdued and horrified and couldn’t believe it
was all happening. Totally betrayed.
years the government disinfo campaign continued until now.
Hubbard is thoroughly maligned in public and made to look
like a charlatan and a lying thief and criminal who was
out to make money in a giant scam. And of course that IS
what the Church had become. Pretty ironic.
there were people that tried to contact him, but his abilities
were impaired and so were those of others, total intimidation
and fear of being kicked out.
Okay, so just to tie this up: you wrote the letter, you
sent it out, and you got the reaction. The organization
had already started crumbling, and then could you talk
about what you think the reaction to the letter, how that
sort of exacerbated any crumbling of the organization.
Well it totally did, and from then on out that letter was
used by each sector that left. It was very much like Martin
Luther and the Catholic Church.
was like that. It was a huge organization, and it was worldwide.
It was even in the communist countries, and it was hard
for Scientology to get into the communist countries, just
like it is for Christians. It was not an appropriate philosophy
for communists. But it was like a worldwide schism with
people leaving in droves.
So people kind of used that as a manifesto, in a sense?
Yeah. Exactly. They used it as their manifesto, and they
left the organization with the concept that they were going
to carry on the techniques, the part of truth that they
had of it. And they tried, but it mostly did not carry
were affected by all the evilness attributed to Hubbard
in a giant campaign financed by black ops. They actually
paid some Scientologists to write disinfo, and paid others
to shut up.
my highest wish was not that everyone leave, but that they
would en masse demand justice and in numbers break down
the walls that protected those who were abusing power and
let us GET to Ron directly. That step was missed.
the letter was used not to create a revolution of redress
out of justified rage, but an exodus. People were already
too beaten, too hopeless, sort of like the USA is today.
They did NOT get the point of the letter and look for the
Third Party at all. The people blamed Ron Hubbard and personally
felt betrayed by him. That’s exactly what the government
wanted. The power in the organization was lost when so
government had to continue to malign and discredit the
founder SO THAT the techniques were not carried on in their
purest forms. Everyone was manipulated to feel completely
betrayed by Hubbard for the government operation to be
were chicken, and were helpless to organize, confront,
and tear down city hall. I and others looked within the
organization for the Third Party. We never hunted down
and found the Third Party. The third party was the black
ops government of the USA. They took it down and now they
own it. It’s run by ego and power now.
public, Ron was more and more made to look as if all he
was doing was stealing money, and that he was a total quack.
His discoveries were maligned and within a few years, even
the people who were proponents felt so personally betrayed
by Ron and blamed him so badly that they no longer practiced
the techniques with as much care.
books were written about Hubbard. The government bought
off the whistleblowers within the organization who were
trying to openly expose nefarious activities.
loners came out and tried to get to the bottom of the corruption
and expose it, but they never found the Third Party. The
Church paid them big sums to shut up and never speak in
few people I know actually went berserk, some of the highest
most experienced people just lost their minds over it all
and bought the bag about Ron, felt utterly disillusioned
about the human race even.
were in it to save the fate of the planet, the very fate
Ron predicted that we’re facing right now, and so
the people felt that Ron had betrayed the planet and all
mankind and that it was all a sham that we were taken and
a part of it.
government did a massive campaign against him and it all
worked. The full original techniques are no longer really
employed, except in comparatively small so-called splinter
groups, not the way it was in the 50s when it was a giant
wave, a giant movement.
not an organization that can deal with what happening on
the planet... you end up with all these hyperdimensional
entities – and ETs, the organization can’t
do it. We didn’t evolve large numbers of highly capable
people who have real power to go up against the things
we’re facing now.
course, there are a few, very capable people indeed, mostly
operating very quietly and effectively and without any
fuss, and they are getting things done. But in numbers,
we even now could really still count, even without super
still could win with certain basic truths and skill-sets.
There are some organizations
that are excellent. But not enough of them yet.
I’ve never actually seen anyone levitate, but I’d
say that’s a magic trick, and maybe it doesn’t
It’s not a “magic trick” - and it does
matter! These kinds of things matter, to be able to do
those things, to read minds. The ETs have abilities like
that as a matter of course, and we can also.
Well actually, the most powerful people I know can be invisible
about all of this and they’re changing conditions
because they’re operating at a nonphysical level.
But, you know...
Okay. There are techniques that are certainly a form of
abuse, but I think this isn’t a failed experiment,
and I want to let you know this personally.
I’m very aware of what you’re talking about.
I mean, my friend here, he knows Captain Bill Robertson,
he’s trained in Bill’s techniques, and he knows
the people who deliver it. So I’m familiar.
when I say it’s failed I mean that there was an inspired
worldwide movement, and that was destroyed.
real thing that was lost is the progressive ability to
face larger and larger forces and manifestations of energies,
and how to actually get a spiritual energy-entity to – independent
of their body and everything else – to manifest a
larger and larger power, so much so that they are themselves
are the equivalent and equal of these hyper-dimensional
entities, but positive ones. We could do more good with
large numbers of us.
ability ... the techniques of manifesting in such massive
ways are not utilized and sought after and the techniques
that my small group discovered are not utilized and are
not out there. Just like all the techniques of your organization
are not utilized in large enough venues, more people, in
other words, a sense of an Earth-Mission like we once had.
the Dane Tops letter came out, I had correspondence with
people where I hinted at some of the things my small group
was doing and we were offered full support. We were offered
a castle in Scotland by a guy named Robin Scott; he later
felt betrayed, like so many others.
at that time, after the letter got to Europe, he offered
full support to my small group to carry on with the work
that we were doing because I said a few things in some
of these private letters that interested and excited him.
today, all those people would be highly biased over any
claims. The sense of betrayal after so much trust of Ron
ruined people. Bill Robertson was not betrayed openly.
But on some level he had to have been very upset. He and
Ron were close friends.
knows, if his techniques were proving effective, the government
would want to take Bill Robertson down too.
I’m just saying it’s not that there aren’t
great techniques still in use and there’s some splinter
groups, like Captain Bill – who founded one of the
best splinter groups, I believe. If I’d known him,
I believe he would have incorporated what our little group
was doing, or we would have incorporated him.
the real wealth of the subject is no longer flowing out,
exploding into the world. The death toll that’s about
to be extracted from our planet is imminent and we as a
planet are appallingly ignorant.
would not have been so if the mission that Ron Hubbard
was doing succeeded. We were a brave and emotionally powerful
bunch. We were a passionate purpose on fire.
It hasn’t happened yet. I know people who are working
on this right as we’re talking. I mean, the game’s
No, it’s not.
It happens at every level.
And there are all kinds of people who are working on this
stuff, using every kind of technique you can name. I don’t
care if someone stands on their head in the corner and
meditates and is sure they’re helping. Maybe they
are. I don’t know. That’s cool with me.
We don’t think we need to go under those headings.
I think their work is still being done.
It’s not only still being done, but there are many,
many techniques that have come up and are being employed.
What is still being employed in the subject of Scientology
is a piece of the whole of mankind discovering who and
what it is.
It’s not a cohesive organization, is what you’re
saying. The cohesiveness of the organization doesn’t
exist. The techniques exist, and they’re being practiced
in all different ways and forms and fashions.
There are so many isms and
things that came out of Scientology. Regression. Rebirthing
came out of it, Primal Scream, Werner Erhard’s est came
out of it, Landmark came out of it, NXIVM came out of it
and NXIVM is just fabulous, improving on some things in
Scientology in several important ways.
done them all and seen what people did with Hubbard’s
stuff. It goes on and on, all the stuff that came out of
the original discoveries that Ron Hubbard started. It’s
legion. His work is everywhere. Few
people know that so much of it came from him.
know, what I know now is that there are so many levels
of what’s true and you can go up in any column of
that truth and once you reach a height in any one column
you feel: I have the truth.
usually you’re so high up that you think you’ve
got it all because the truth you see would solve it all
you can just see how it will. But then, there’s someone
else that has a different perspective and they have a great
truth too, but within a different column of the whole.
where we have trouble when we go up the truth ladder ourselves
really high into understanding so profound it seems you
have all the answers for the world.
on this very high level, there may be a different perspective
and it’s an equal level of truth. People who reach
the top of a column of a particular truth are sure IT is
the one - and that’s a trap. I see so many of these
high levels of truth having sprung up in the world trying
to get through for the masses to utilize, like whatever
ETs tried to get through to me, I was given directions
on one column of truth.
part of the knowledge within that column included THAT
there are similar equal truths that have tried to get through
to many other people in different ways. We reach truth
and we want to share it, all trying to give to each other
what we see.
techniques or different methods. It may just be meditation.
But you don’t really know there are always truths
equally true to the one you see. It’s a trap to not
know that. The whole is all of them, even opposing ones.
a full dichotomy is a basic in understanding the structure
of life. But equal truths are not necessarily opposing,
they’re also just variations on a theme or different
themes, equally valid in the entire fabric of life.
Well, I did the same thing.
On my own, and it wasn’t like that at all.
It doesn’t have to be anyone else’s way. And
it actually isn’t the same way I went. Scientology
was just something different, a different method of getting
there, and it doesn’t necessarily offer the same
abilities as other things. At its best, it is not a “way”,
but a technique to release an individual’s unique
path, each one different from every other one.
There are many roads.
Many roads. Many, many roads.
And I think we could leave it at that rather than get this
into any kind of divisive...
That’s the biggest sickness, is I have the way.
Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, thank you so very much for telling
us your story. We need to talk about how we might put this
But just a moment, though - because I know that you gave
this a very great deal of thought before you came on here.
Are there more places you want to go with this story? Because
we might not know what those places are that you have in
mind. Have you finished? Maybe you haven’t!
I believe Ron Hubbard had the most dangerous information
of anybody in this century, and for a time was a major
target and enemy of the Illuminati. More resources were
put into taking him down and his knowledge out of the public
domain and using it for their destructive purposes than
any other fight that they had at that time – I believe
he was their worst fight of the day, as far as a human
wanted his knowledge and they wanted to take him out. They
won in the 80s, after a 25 year fight.
do not know what they are, and just telling them doesn’t
work. How to manifest yourself in knowing the immortal
being you are with your memory intact is what Hubbard tried
to impart. It was a real attempt.
I understand. I remember something that... You may know
the quote and reference better than me, but I remember
that Hubbard talked about what I believe he referred to
as the Shades of Night.
Shades of Night were
falling, and that as we became more technologically capable,
that technology could be used to free man or to enslave
him. And there was an opportunity, a window of opportunity,
as the Shades of Night were falling, to use this technology
to free man before the forces of darkness got there first.
Now, this is entirely is my paraphrase. Can you say something
He knew the technical and philosophical elements being
introduced on Earth from his own memory, and the verified
similar memories of others. He labeled these technologies
with his own labels. He knew about the forces to use technology
for evil, and he knew that they were gaining more and more
power, and he was trying to wake people up in time. He
talked about it in these types of metaphorical terms.
And these are all the same kinds of things that we’re
talking about in Camelot.
Absolutely. It’s what Camelot is talking about, only
he was in the 1950s and 60s.
Right. And this is part of the reason why you were so attracted
to Camelot, and a long time ago you got very involved with
us. But in essence, he was talking about the ETs behind
Right. Our real history. He was talking about the techniques
of mind control, and how it was done. And he was talking
about the basics of how the mind works, that the mind can
be healed, and that you are able to gain your healed mind
back: how to do it, and the programs for recovery were
the courses and procedures in Scientology. The super-soldiers
could make some use of it for their own restoration.
And the thing that I’d like to say on record on this
transcript - and I’d like to ask for you too - is
that, for instance, we have just come from the Los Angeles Awake
and Aware conference
where we heard testimony from Duncan O’Finioan and
David Corso on record and quite a number of people were
part of that program, the MK ULTRA program, off record,
who have been extensively – in the psychology terminology – implanted,
not physically but psychically.
It’s physically too. That stuff under Duncan’s
fingernails with electricity... The Bourne Identity scenario.
That’s classic implant stuff.
Right. But it’s the psychic implants that you can’t
extract with a pair of pliers. That’s the stuff that
you need extra, very refined techniques, to get to the
Right. But you have to undo the electrical charge to do
it. The implant is simultaneous. Pain plus unconsciousness
plus command. That’s the formula. It’s all
in the basic book from 1950.
I understand that. We heard Duncan O’Finioan talking
on stage... We heard him say in response to a question,
that when a therapist tried to work with him, one of his
alternate personalities that his colleagues had nicknamed The
became triggered and he tried to kill the therapist. And
that was the end of that.
told me off record, and I’d like for you to say this
again, that Scientology techniques, properly applied, could
actually handle that entire situation without any danger
or risk and with a guarantee of a good outcome. And I wonder
if you could state this, because a lot of those people
will hear this. It’s a very, very important statement
The techniques, I believe, came from the research that
Hubbard did. But then you have to find an expert practitioner
or develop it for each other in tandem. The advanced techniques
are the most basic techniques - certainly not in the Church
anymore, so one has to know where to go to get that kind
of assistance, and yes, how to do it is in the original
research that came out of L. Ron Hubbard.
are techniques that are known that can fully reverse the
situation of a super-soldier, and it does require commitment,
and time to do it, and it can be done, and they haven’t
been known before Ron Hubbard.
I believe the techniques done to make a super-soldier,
they can be reversed. You know of Cathy O’Brien?
The first person to help her when she escaped was a Scientologist
who took her in, a friend of mine.
had her memory restored by a number of techniques, and
not only by him. That’s remarkable. There are no
others of her ilk with restored memory like she has. She
was implanted severely. From childhood - babyhood, actually.
super-soldiers should get together with the White House
models and examine their mind control programs. Would be
a great joint project! Invite Cathy O’Brien to the
We might see whether you’re in danger from releasing
It was the organization that used their money and resources
to find me. The only danger is still the truth about who
and what we humans are, the fact that our history can be
known, and that we can become cognizant of what our history
really is in this universe and what’s happening on
this planet, and the fact that it’s a prison planet,
but we are infinitely powerful and IF the secrets were
revealed we could beat it.
are the secrets that I’m verifying, that’s
already come out in Camelot. Its important to understand
how brainwashing is really working and being utilized.
There are other people that we can talk to to get more
information about that. There are some people we want to
talk to about that.
But thank you. I think that’s very good.
Was there anything else that you wanted to add in there
that you haven’t said, even something that can be
inserted? Was there anything that you came with on your
notes that you didn’t get a chance to say?
I think that if anybody becomes interested in the subject
now because of this, should do whatever they can to find
original works of Ron Hubbard, not the altered versions
that are now sold and used and to find people that know
those techniques from the ’50s. That’s where
the most valuable stuff is. Don’t buy rewrites of
their original books, which they have done.
Okay. For the benefit of the technical people, what specific
techniques would be on your list?
Okay, it’s a sequence. Read Dianetics,
the Modern Science of Mental Health. That
was the first book. Scientologists call it Book One.
people can team up and apply the techniques in there on
each other. You also want to go through this lifetime’s
physical trauma in such a way that the ridges of stuck
energy in the body release.
the main thing that has been taken away from the Church
is letting that kind of energy really manifest. Everything
in the Church become mental, but “intellectual” doesn’t
cut the mustard of deep energy release.
move mountains of negative energies. Leverage does, and
physical reversal, and that means applied skills. The super-soldiers
could read and utilize that book, if they’re therapy-minded.
I was only asking that question because you were talking
about 1950s processes, and I just wondered if you had some
specific processes in mind.
The book is the start. You can go a long way with it.
But the basics of what’s ultimately possible, I’d
say one of the best things to listen to are The Philadelphia
Doctorate Course tapes.
Have you ever heard them?
I’ve listened to them all the way through.
It’s all Ron Hubbard’s stuff.
Yeah. Where my question is really going here, I mean this
isn’t necessarily going to be in the transcript,
but, for instance, for any of Ron’s Org [the splinter
group that Bill Robertson founded] trained auditors and
associates listening to this, what is it that you’re
pointing out that you don’t think they’re doing
that they should be doing for training or practice or drill
that they’re not doing? Or maybe you don’t
have an answer offhand, but it might be interesting if
you could specify that.
There are things about entities that I haven’t seen
fully addressed. I believe there’s a blueprint for
human beings that was installed in us that whatever life
form you’re in, whether you’re a human being
or a different kind of life form, it has a certain structure
that structure is installed, and that structure means that
if you go have a life as one of these kind of life forms
then there are secrets of that life form, there is a spiritual
structure of each life form, not ONLY the physical DNA
structure, and you can go much further as a spiritual being
when you become intimate with these spiritual installed
structures of each life form.
is the key to understanding ETs. We are
ETs to someone else too, you know, but you’re still
attached to that life form you’re using at the time,
because you don’t really understand the structure – you
can’t really get free from it.
this is a part of the research I haven’t seen done
anywhere, because you get to the point of understanding
yourself as a infinite spiritual being, and realize you
ARE your soul and you do not die, BUT you are still trapped
to a degree. But start with Dianetics. That’s the
Bill, answering that question is like trying to tell you
something in a capsule. But it’s actually what we’ve
been trying to share with you since we met you, why we
wanted you to come and spend a week or two or five days
with us. We’ve never been able to make it happen,
and the offer’s still open for you to visit us and
let us share more with you.
Well, sure. I mean, the problem there, of course, is I’m
not a technical person; I’m not even an auditor -
just a solo auditor. My job here is different, so it’s
a way of creating enough of a curiosity-mystery-sandwich-hook
to get people to ask the right questions.
Okay. I’m not talking about sharing it technically
with you, but applying it directly to you. For those purposes
we also have the conditions below Confusion and we have
them in a way that I could… What we have is very
interesting to most people that were brought up in that
discipline, and that’s something that could be shared.
It could be shared.
Okay. I think we can actually boil this down into something
that will end up looking like a pretty decent transcript.
We’ve had a lot of success before with converting
audio interviews that have been really quite broken up,
with lots of breaks and interruptions, into something that
actually reads very fluently.
I was very moved by Alex Collier, were you?
Oh yeah. A wonderful man.
I’m very moved by Alex, and I thought: Wow, if that’s
a by-pass, you know, if we could make a connection and
receive a mentorship at this stage that might not be a
bad thing at all to make that connection.
I went up to him and I said: Would you assist us? And
he said: Yes. I’ll meet you halfway.
thought that it would be great to see if he could pull
some people that are interested in that, in having some
mentorships of that nature, because it would be mentorship
about how to get along in this part of the galaxy and what
we might do to give ourselves a better chance here and
It’s a fascinating conversation. I’m sure it’s
already happening. I mean...
As a result of Alex’s message?
No. It’s been happening for years.
Sure. But I mean, he had a very specific message that the
Andromedans wanted him to deliver, like...
Yes. It’s like we step up the program, but... I’ve
talked on record now about my own strange ET experiences
25 years ago and I’m sure I’ve been mentored
all the time. What am I doing here right now? What are
we doing talking to each other?
Right, right, right. Why are we, who are we together?
Exactly. And so I think that with that encouragement, that
support, that catalysis, that there are unseen hands. I
mean of us, everything that we’ve experienced, how
it was that Camelot came together.
mean, this whole game that I’m on here started three
days after I finished the Games Master Course, you know.
Did you know that? Camelot is a product of the Games Master
Course. Absolutely. I spent 18 months doing the Games Master
Course and then... bang.
And here’s the game! You got the game! [laughs]
Of course, absolutely. This whole thing from my perspective
is a kind of Games Master Project.
Isn’t that incredible?
I mean, I’ve said to people very quietly from time
to time that if you want to know what the Games Master
Course does or can do, look at this.
It’s Camelot! Wow.
So this is a product of the Bridge. I mean, that needs
to be understood very carefully, very subtly, because I’m
not kind of saying... You know, this isn’t a me-me,
This has nothing to do with that. Everyone’s got
their own process, and Kerry’s come to that independently,
but you’ve gotta see the whole thing as a whole.
It’s got to do with the nature of responsibility.
I’m responsible for everything, but so are you.
So is everybody, and so the whole thing overlaps and it
But I know that I wouldn’t be doing what I’m
doing without the journey over the Bridge and so for me
there’s nothing ineffective about what happened after
the Church split apart. I was never in the Church and I
only found the subject in 1984 with one of the splinter
groups in London.
are miracles happening all over the place, and this is
a manifestation of one of them.
I think I misspoke on this concept. I’m comparing
it to what Hubbard wanted to do, not to the fact there
aren’t miracles that came out of what Hubbard did.
There were many, many people that went on to manifest extraordinary
things, like Bill Robertson, but compared to clearing the
planet, that dream was busted.
Yes. I think my understanding - which is a conversation
we should take offline - is that there’s something
different happening now. There are a lot of things that
are happening off-planet. You know, you haven’t talked
about the Galactic Patrol.
You haven’t talked about how come all these people
are suddenly here in this lifetime, all working together
doing this thing, you know?
What is it to be missionaires, and what does that mean?
And why is it that when the Sea Org members were asked
to sign a billion-year contract, they said Okay, no
did that mean?
And what is that symbolic of?
Yeah. Like we’ve already signed one. This is just
a reaffirmation of what we’re already doing. [laughs]
Exactly. That’s right. And many recent observers
have commented on the fact that there’s this very
huge influx of people who’ve come here with a very
strong sense of mission, and these don’t seem to
be ordinary human beings.
seem to be people with much enhanced abilities, but just
because they’re here on this planet, they need to
have everything because you arrive here and you can’t
remember a damn thing, and you don’t know what you
should be doing, and you’re all confused. I mean,
it wasn’t like what we call it, and so all of that
has to be repaired.
most of the missionaires here have never actually done
any work in Scientology. That’s an assist program.
It’s like a specific assist program to rehabilitate
certain abilities. Some people just say, Well, to hell
with it. I’ll just do my job anyway.
Right, like Kerry. Absolutely. And some people are coming
in with such awareness and ability that, you know... At
the time in the ’50s there weren’t people like
that, you know. You went through a program to get that,
you didn’t come in and have it.
friend: What’s her name, the third person in your
I actually don’t feel cool saying the third person’s
name because she so much doesn’t want that. They
attacked her... they never attacked me... they attacked
my friend here too, but with her it was the kind where
they go through the trash and go to the house and knock
over and over for months and years on the door, lots of
that kind of stuff, and she got scared and she left town
and she stopped delivering.
When did that happen?
Ten years ago.
Oh, as recently as that?
Oh yeah, the Church kept going after her. She was delivering
for a while in a small way. She was well-known in the organization
and so, you know, the harassment just didn’t stop.
They just wanted her to stop delivering.
know, one thing I didn’t talk about is I know how
all the upper level materials even got out in the public.
I know who did it. I know how the Class Eight tapes got
out into broad public domain.
You’re talking about... what’s his name?
Larry West, yes.
I know who gave him the stuff.
But some of that stuff has been altered, hasn’t it?
Oh yeah, everything’s been altered. There’s
nothing that doesn’t get touched. because every person
wants to be creative and put their own touch on it. But
even the Class Eight tapes, things like this, when this
all happened, this was done after Dane Tops, that this
stuff came out.
I know who got it out, and how they got the Class Eight
tapes out, and how it was masterminded because that material
was much protected – you couldn’t get to that.
I’ll tell you the operation sometime if you want
to hear it.
was really, really incredible, but when that material started
coming out the confidential veil was broken for the Church
to keep their methods secret.
Okay. That was like the second stage of this whole... exodus.
Within three years after the Dane Tops letter, people were
empowered to go on their own, because they could get original
material to use to help people that had all been locked
up. No one would have ever dreamed of using it outside
the confidential confines and inner holy sanctums.
I‘ll put it that way. Many of the stellar people
went on their own, and then they failed and believed they
had realized it was all a wash, instead of that they were
manipulated to quit and discredit all of it.
the thing Ron Hubbard said about it, that it’s not
going to hold together without the organization, that was
true. Everybody wants to be an individual. And
unfortunately, that sometimes means changing something
that doesn’t need changing, when it just needs to
be applied as intended.
Okay. Agreed. There’s a lot of individuality in the
alternative media, certainly. It’s amazing how people
with similar purposes often don’t work together well.
Let’s call that a wrap. Kerry, do you have anything
else here before we close?
No. This has been fascinating. Really fabulous.
Absolutely. Thank you so much. We could talk for a long
time more, but this has been quite an amazing story. A
lot of people will be new to this and will be fairly mind-blown
by it all. They’ll have to go through it several
Okay. Thank you again. Take good care of yourself. Still
standing after all these years. That’s a wonderful
the original Dane Tops Letter.
here for a book, The
Montauk Book of the Dead, written
by Peter Moon, the author of the Montauk series of books,
who worked alongside L. Ron Hubbard for many years. Highly
recommended as a well-written and balanced account.
here for a 1987 BBC radio documentary, Ruthless
Adventure: the lives of L. Ron Hubbard, a very
balanced and interesting account containing archived interviews
and little-known research material.
here for a section of Walter Bowart's unpublished book,
The Invisible Third World War, making reference to L. Ron
Hubbard and his techniques. Bowart was never a Scientologist,
but understood the value of Hubbard's work and techniques.
here for a Channel 4 (UK) documentary
on Scientology as delivered by Ron's
Org, the largest 'splinter
group', founded by Bill Robertson in 1984. Amusing and balanced.
Ryan's personal Scientology connection is through Ron's
Org (see immediately above), from which he has gained
a great deal of benefit. He was never in the Church of Scientology,
and is on
the famous Church
of Scientology Enemies' list.